Redtick's field trial debate thread

Redtick · Post by **Redtick** » Wed Oct 26, 2005 8:02 am

Swamper and the rest, we get some rabbit runs where you don't see the rabbit and we are very sure they are running a rabbit. We have huge bean and corn fields where it is nearly impossible to run a rabbit out of. But, unless you see the rabbit, no plus points should be awarded.

Let me tell you about a cast I was on last Spring.

2 well known fellows were hunting their well known dogs in a UKC cast. A World Championship is held at their club where they are high ranking officers. I am very sure most of you guys know these guys and their dogs. We turned loose and both of these guys struck immediately, ran the track 100 yards and quit. The judge's and my dog never barked. We waited the 3 minutes, called it a dead track, minussed the dogs, caught and released them again. They did the same thing again with no barks from the judge's dog or mine. We minussed them again. They did it the 3rd time within twenty minutes, got miused again and were scratched for having over 300 minus points. Rightfully so, according to the rules we were going by. The judge and I hunted the remaining time, our dogs circled every rabbit they jumped and eventually my dog won.

Now, let me hear you guys say that these dogs would not have been plussed in an ARHA LP hunt. Anyone that says they would have been minussed is full of hooey. These guys were officers where the World Hunt is held. They would likely be judging the judge's dog in the World Hunt. No one would risk making these fellows mad. And, by ARHA LP rules, they could have recieved plus points and beat the dogs that didn't run these questionable tracks. So, the winner of the cast could have been a completely different dog. But, which dog would you rather hunt?

I want to say both of these fellows were very nice guys and I like them both. I am sure both of the dogs have won alot in ARHA and this was a UKC Champion cast, these dogs had won in UKC also. In fact, I had judged one in a UKC cast. He had struck off of the box in that hunt also with no rabbit seen.

I think on the average, a completely different dog wins in the different formats. I really am much more interested in Professional Beagling. I would be running mine in PKC Beagle Hunts but they have 2 sets of rules. One set for the dogs that have to show you the rabbit for plus points, one set of rules for dogs that don't have to prove they are running a rabbit to receive plus points . Right now, no PKC beaglers are buying the Small Pack (no rabbit seen) option. I don't care what you amateurs want to call a rabbit dog, but I think most professionals want to see the rabbit before plus points are given. And, they want the entire cast to be the judge.

Show me the rabbit before you say you have a better beagle.

houndsound · Post by **houndsound** » Wed Oct 26, 2005 8:18 am

I think we're all ametours.............unless someone makes their entire living off beagling they are an ametour! However there are classy people and not so classy people,,,,,,getting on here and calling names like pro. or amet. speaks for itself.

dk

jdmart · Post by **jdmart** » Wed Oct 26, 2005 8:59 am

Redtick,

I run UKC, and I will agree there are several ways that handlers can manipulate the rules and hunts. I have 2 HBCH and one of those likes 1 win being a Grand. I do like having to see the rabbit to score it. I ran against a dog a year so ago that had ran successful in ARHA that started a couple of tracks in a UKC and ran them alone that were not rabbits or ghost tracks. The other three dogs I knew and they can run a rabbit an do not lie. The handler just couldn't understand. Obviously his knowledge of a good beagle was not very good. But we all have to deal with someone in this sport every now and then.

But UKC has its faults also, all registries do if you pick at them. When you find the perfect one, or the perfect dog or a perfect person let me know. Holeing rabbits and mouthy check dogs in UKC is just as big a problem as any rule in any other registry. For independent judges, you can get teamed up on in a cast also. In Champions you have an outside judge so it is no different than ARHA. You can also strike your dog when someone elses sounds just like it. There are certain breeders that almost every dog sounds the same. And that is not a joke! I know some probably don't see that one, but it is true. If you have ever ran against them you know.

I don't trial ARHA, I do run AKC and UKC, but do know people who do and I know some of the rules through discussion with people who do over talk about the different formats. I like UKC and there are some very nice dogs in KY that have finished. My whole point is you can manipulate any format if you want and it is done in UKC. Of course friends may hear a friends dog over someone elses that is common nature. May not be the way it is suppossed to be but you can't help it.

I have tried to be the Mr. Nice guy on more than on occassion in hunts and you never get repayed for it. I had a young male a year so ago in a UKC that a line was called my dog crossed the line second, the other two dogs came running after our dogs and never knew where the line was at, they argued their dogs where on the line, they were not even close. They thought the first dog was going to win the trial, time was within 10-15 minutes. Owner of dog 1 was judging he knew I was ahead, I knew it was close but was unusure. He wasn't going to let them have the line but I agreed to. I lost the cast. That was my first lesson and I have had others. But I fight a little harder now! But I will not pull some of the crap I have seen! I would quit first.

Lynn is a great guy and has always answered any questions I have had for him and spent his own time talking to me. I have never bought a single dog from him, he has just been super to me. If he wasn't fighting for what his dog deserves it's time to give it up. Go gettem' Lynn.

Lynn Perkins · Post by **Lynn Perkins** » Wed Oct 26, 2005 10:49 am

Redtick here is the problem i see with your story.....you can not base a whole format of dogs on just one cast,you seen.I have seen what you said scored both ways,sometimes i have agreed and other times not but to down grade everyones hound becasue you don't agree?get real,in order for you to say this you would have to been on every cast ever ran and seen for yourself becasue what you saying don't happen very often.

I will agree there is somethings i would like changed but had no problem scoring hounds becasue i didn't see the rabbit.i feel when i judge i know hounds good enuff to score + or - when they deserve it.Regardless of the distance of the track!

Jmart thanks for the kind words,i don't have to sell a man a hound to consider him my friend,always heard to have a friend you must be one first,so anytime i can be of help.....you know the number lol

I would have to ask a question to you REDTICK seems to me in this format you run in,that if someone was'nt on top of the game and didn't know the rules like the back of their hand that YOU could play them and beat them by out handling or "slick handling" so to speak in a case were this happens is the best dog winning the cast or the best handler winning the cast?Regardless if you seen every rabbit or none!

You've said yourself it's human nature to not be totally honest.Well that goes for you too,your no different then what you say everybody else is Dishonest

so how do we know out in a cast with you that your going to be honest during the cast?we don't! we have to trust that you will and evryone else in the cast will,just as we have to trust the judge will in a little pack cast.

Oh yell before i forget if you are what a professional beagler acts like or talks like,putting down others hounds and people then i will always want to stay an amateur,sorry but i feel in my heart that you are a sorry excuse for a beagle owner and give trialers a bad name,my opinion.

Like i said i don't like you or your kind

Redtick · Post by **Redtick** » Wed Oct 26, 2005 5:25 pm

I really liked jdmart's post. It was well written and well thought out. There are other problems in UKC hunts. The guy carrying the scorecard often wins around here and I am usually carrying a camcorder than a scorecard. And you are correct about the nice guy and cast manipulation points. But, the rabbit has to be seen, the entire cast has a vote in a lot of situations, and no format is perfect.

I would love to run against Mr. Perkins' dogs in a cast that the winner recieves $10, 000 for being the best dog there. Before you think this is a bet, no that is not what I mean. What I mean is where you hunt for money instead of trophys and this hunt would be after qualifying hunts are held and won. In short, I would prefer the PKC approach to winning. But, as it stands now, with 2 different formats, it is impossible.
I truely think Mr. Perkins would quickly turn into a "pro" hunter if the conditions were right.

And, many many amateurs hunt PKC's Nite Hunts. I think the winner of their coonhound division won over $25,000 this last weekend. I would like to see the beagles' purse get that large and it come down to Mr. Perkins' dogs and mine. Of course, I won't stand for a set of rules where I could offer the judge half my winnings for picking my dog. Nuff said.

yellowdog · Post by **yellowdog** » Wed Oct 26, 2005 5:39 pm

if you think things are crooked now...add money and it will turn into a total screw fest ...what happened to having a good time enjoying your hounds and being able to brag a lil when your hounds do well?...heck why not bet on my sons little league ball games heck we could do point spreads and the whole nine...lmao...enuff said by me...do what ya like ...

Post by **Aaron Bartlett** » Wed Oct 26, 2005 7:02 pm

Redtick,
Your starting to ramble once again. The problem is its always the same ramble.....Has been for years.
Please explain the difference in PKC having more than one format compared to ARHA or UKC or AKC. PKC has two, ARHA has 3 or 4, UKC has 2 and may have a 3rd very soon, and AKC has several. The truth is they all have more than one, so do us all a favor and think up a new one!
Run the format you like and quit running down the ones you dont.

mac40391 · Post by **mac40391** » Wed Oct 26, 2005 7:41 pm

i'm confused , i don't understand.....lol

i can't believe redtick handles his own dogs . i figured you to be one of those old men that took the neibors 14 year old kid to catch his dogs , oh wait i understand now do they make these i offroad now???

Lynn Perkins · Post by **Lynn Perkins** » Thu Oct 27, 2005 5:12 am

Redtick i have asked several questions of you so we can DEBATE,you have answered none of them,WHY?

Just like in the past DEBATES we have you have no legit answers,just that you "PRO" hunter redtick don't like it.

You would not want it one on one in the finals,regardless of format,and the prise it would hurt in your end

There is no debate about you,like said you are starting to ramble,i kept up with your new format for awhile on RHO it turned into a joke,the rules became so many even you had trouble keeping up.I can see a few rules but let the hounds pick the winner,the cream will rise to the top and the crap will sink to the bottom.

Thanks for thinking i could be a "pro" hunter but i believe i just stay here on earth for awhile and enjoy listening to hounds run

notice: I didn't say just my hounds because i like a race regardless if i own them and if im running with someone and i see their hound do good work i letem know about,just as if i see bad work,ill let know and discuss how we as friends can fix it.

Something else the arha champ thats gunshy you owned,why would you have sold her,even if you told the other party,she should have been culled!Most definetly not worthy of her title period!!Did you finish her to champion or buy her championed?

Redtick · Post by **Redtick** » Thu Oct 27, 2005 5:52 pm

Lynn, on the gunshy ARHA Champion, I bought off of another well known ARHA beagler. I won't embarrass him. Her mother was a Grand Rabbit Beagle Champion and her sire was also an ARHA Grand Rabbit Beagle Champion and an ARHA Hall of Fame dog. No, she wasn't normally shy and her gun shyness could have been a training error, like most gunshyness is. Gunshyness is certainly NOT inherited but natural shyness is. The bitch WASN"T shy in any other way.
The question was asked, why not 2 formats in PKC. The simple answer is that in order to have a World Championship program or a Super Stakes program, there would have to be 1 set rules everyone is using to qualify for these hunts. I think some of the PKC Coonhound Super Stakes pups won around $15, 000 about a week ago. This is from breeder's puppies fees that were paid when these pups are born. So a skilled breeder could sell his pups or train them and win a good amount of money by being a skilled breeder. But, there is no chance of these programs working as long as it is possible for me to pay a judge who is judging the cast off by himself half of the money I could win for picking my dog. (I wouldn't do such a thing, I am NOT a cheat but there are folks that would in a heartbeat). On the other hand, if the entire cast picked the winner, everyone would have a stake in keeping everything honest. I have guided coonhound casts where these large amount of monies were on the line. These cast member were real honest, even the ones that may stretch the rules in other registries. PKC has a real strict disiplinary committee with no favorites and everyone had a stake in keeping everything honest.
Lynn, if you are a better beagle breeder than me, a possible Super Stakes program should interest you.
I want to point out if you read all of the messages I have written on this thread, I have never attacked any individual or dog. I have pointed out some flaws in some rules. On the other hand, some folks have attacked me personally. Do you really think they would give my dogs a fair shake if they were judging them in a cast?

mike crabtree · Post by **mike crabtree** » Fri Oct 28, 2005 2:19 am

I judge Dogs not Handlers. If your dog gets a check I will score it. If I dont like you I will still score it. If you are so scared of people judging you wrong because they dont like you, Stop being such an asshole.

Redtick · Post by **Redtick** » Fri Oct 28, 2005 8:40 am

Mike, I have studied human nature all of my life. I am very sure there are some judges just like you claim to be. And, I am very sure there are plenty of dishonest judges also. I never called you a name, why are you calling me one? Your name calling eliminates any thing you say about how honest your judging is in my eyes.

Another very related topic is the judges following the dogs. Around here, I have broke several ARHA judges from judging after they tried to keep up with my dogs. No one wants to do it, not only with my dogs but any dogs. No one can keep up with a hard driving pack in thick cover.
I am a disabled veteran. I could not judge an ARHA cast. But, I can easily judge an UKC cast. I have been running beagles for over 40 years. I know what they are doing. ARHA judges are often young, very inexperianced beaglers around this area. The older, more knowledgable beaglers just can't run behind the dogs for an hour. Around here, you get a lot of guessing. And, a lot of buddy judging. I won't kiss some butt to put a win on my dogs. But, there are plenty of folks short on dog power that are experts at it.

mike crabtree · Post by **mike crabtree** » Fri Oct 28, 2005 10:40 am

I wont guess, If I dont see it I dont score it. All the Trials I have been to in VA and KY had more than 1 judge per cast. In NC they used 1 judge per cast, and I didnt like that very well.Actually I liked winning the hunt, but didnt like judging solo. You just miss too much.

Redtick · Post by **Redtick** » Sat Oct 29, 2005 8:08 am

mike crabtree wrote:I wont guess, If I dont see it I dont score it. All the Trials I have been to in VA and KY had more than 1 judge per cast. In NC they used 1 judge per cast, and I didnt like that very well.Actually I liked winning the hunt, but didnt like judging solo. You just miss too much.

You are right about a solo judge missing too much. Around here, they are lucky to find 1 guy to judge, let alone 2 guys. No one wants to spend an hour running behind the dogs, especially fast dogs.

In UKC, we wait for the dogs to circle the rabbit. It makes much more sense.

swing · Post by **swing** » Sat Oct 29, 2005 9:12 am

Hey Dave ,
How does this sound, let a judge go out and judge the dogs like they do in L.P.or midwest format and let the gallery judge like they do in UKC hunts, dont total the score together until you are done and back at the truck, kinda best of both worlds.