PKC Beagling

WrongsideRandy · Post by **WrongsideRandy** » Sun Nov 27, 2005 10:26 am

In my opinion. I dont think Larry cares if PKC runs beagles or not......and as long as he dont care.........you might as well waste your time pissing in the wind

Randy

houndsound · Post by **houndsound** » Sun Nov 27, 2005 5:19 pm

I've been known to have some sprayback from time to time, so oh well....LOL,

seriously though I suppose you're right Randy, if in fact the head of PKC has no interest in it it probablly wouldn't work...... but if he saw some interest in it growing, he might, who knows.

dk

Redtick · Post by **Redtick** » Sun Nov 27, 2005 7:05 pm

1. I think it is entirely correct that Larry Meeks does not have much interest in the PKC Beagle Program.
2. I lobbied Larry Meek every time I saw him (which was quite a bit at the time) for 2 years to put in a beagle program before he put one in.
3. If Steve Fielder knew anything about beagle rules and helped write some, why did he go with rules he knew absolutely nothing about? He read some statictics, that about it. He hasn't in recent history and as far as I know currently doesn't own beagles. I do know he knows about track dogs, he is a bear hunter. How many bear get caught by track stradlers bear dogs? 0, that's how many. Track stadlers is another term for "line control" type dogs. Coonhunters know track dogs. Ask any of the competition coonhunters that win the big money if they want track straddlers or they would stand for a judge off by himself judging the dogs.
If Steve really knew the fundamental backbone and strength of PKC rules in any dog competition, he would know that they are based on dogs producing the meat where it can be seen and the entire cast participation in the scoring of the dogs. The Small Pack rules have neither fundamental element in them. Steve is NOT with PKC any more.
4.I was the first guy to register a beagle with PKC and registered the first litter of beagle pups with them.
5. I am a member of 3 local beagle clubs. There is no way I will mention anything about PKC beagling to any of them or to any of the other PKC affiliated clubs I am a member of as long as they have 2 sets of rules. It was a poor idea when implimented and is a poor idea now.
6. No one is buying the PKC Small Pack rules and no one has in the last year or so. They need to be deleted so a possible Super Stake and World Championship can take place.
7.There was a UKC Beagle Club just a short distance from Evansville, no one from that club was invited to the PKC Rules meeting. Just ARHA buddies who judge each other's dogs. Buddy judging! No one is buying it in PKC beagling today, that is a fact. Just look in Prohound and see for your self.
8. If you like Small Pack rules in a amateur format, fine. Hunt under them. But they are unworkable in a Beagling For Bucks format. It is just plain too easy to cheat and when large amounts of money are involved, how would you prove 2 buddies didn't give each other's dog a higher score and then split the money? If it can happen, it probably will.

JMurphy · Post by **JMurphy** » Sun Nov 27, 2005 10:15 pm

Redtick:
I wanted to address some of your points.

So Steve Fielder is good enough to write the Hound and Hunter rules for UKC but not PKC.?Why is that?
2.You constantly bring up the point that you were the first to register a dog or litter in PKC Beagles.Does that prove something or make some sort of point.If so I have no idea what that might be.
3.You constantly talk about cheating.It happens but alot more rarely than what you would like others to believe. and it can happen regardless of the rules and no I dont think it will be any worse when competing for 1000 cash than it will be for a 10 dollar trophy.
4.You lobbied Larry Meeks for 2 years before he put in a beagle program.It is obvious how much influence you have with him.(lol).
5.No seems to be buying PKC beagles period regardlesss of the format.If the owner isnt interested in it(as you say)then how is that going to motivate other folks to be.
6.I will compete regardless of what format or rules they may end up with.As I have stated before I dont care if I have to tie little pink bows in my dogs ears I will be there.
7.Why do you refuse to address the various lies that I have caught you in?It must be that a liar hates getting caught.
8.Some friends of mine might be calling you.I explained to them(using your logic)how that I am now a pro bowler.They didnt seen to get it so I gave them your number so you can explain itI very much appreciate your help in this matter because they dont seem to be taking me seriously as a pro bowler much like people dont take you seriously as a pro beagler.
9.If PKC doesnt get behind the beagle program then there never will be a world championship or superstakes program regardless of what rules they use.
10.If the use of two sets of rules is really the problem that you are making it out to be then why arent a bunch of folks complaing about it?
11.You constantly bring up the point that the guys who had the first PKC trial were ARHA guys.Wern't some of them also people who had a strong history in PKC.Seems like they had a lot more influence with Larry Meeks than you did.Lol
12 Please address the lies that you have been caught in and state why anyone should believe anything you say after having been caught in these lies.
J.Murphy/Murphy's Kennel

ringtail · Post by **ringtail** » Mon Nov 28, 2005 1:40 am

i dont know why anybodyeven trials if they are gonna get on here and complain about rules and regulations,,,,,if you dont like dont come on here crying like a little school girl ,,,,,,,,now swings dogs have been cut, lynns dogs has been cut not to mention lynn,,,,,,,,like i said if ya dont like akc/ ukc/pkc/or arha rules and events get out,,,,,,,now from what im seeing here is guys trying to make names for them selves not the dog now if you wanna beat the brush your self or get sand in your nose do then maybe you might get more respect in the beagling circut,,,,,,,,,,,now quityerbitchen,,,,,,,,,oh 1 other thing to the professional beagler,,,,,,,,,,,,,, CHAMPIONS ARE NOT BOUGHT THEY ARE MADE,,,,,,,WHETHER THEY ARE RUNNING A SEEN RABBIT OR NOT,,,,,,common sence would tell you if you had any around beagles by the way a dog gets fired up and moving throught the brush if he is running real or ghost,,,,,,,,i just wish if they are gonna be so much argueeing about handlers dogs some would put up or shut up,,,,

i d bet any amount of money j murphy , lynn perkins , swing not to mention a few others could give you a good country azz whooping with thier worst dog,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,nuff said,,,,,,

swing · Post by **swing** » Mon Nov 28, 2005 8:17 am

By the way Redtick, did you get any good footage at the hunt and how did your dogs do at the trial you went to this past weekend?

Redtick · Post by **Redtick** » Mon Nov 28, 2005 9:41 am

As far as I know, none of the folks at the first and only PKC rules meeting had any previous close ties to PKC as far as I know. I don't claim to know everything. As best I can tell, they were just members of a local ARHA club near Evansville. I will say if they knew very much about PKC and PKC rules, they sure didn't show it. PKC has always been about dogs having the meat to get plus points and the entire cast being part of the judging process. As best as I can tell, Larry Meeks assigned Steve Fielder to develope a PKC Beagling Program. Steve, who is not much of a beagler(if any at all), read some statistics, was contacted by some ARHA people like Craig, and decided to go with ARHA rules, even though he had never hunted a beagle using those rules. Steve is no longer with PKC. And, the ARHA people he contacted had never hunted under any other format. Both Larry and Steve stood before a crowd of beaglers in the first PKC beagle hunt and admitted they knew absolutely nothing about competition beagling. They made their decissions on what has proven to be bad advise. If someone is still going to try to promote 2 sets of PKC beagles rules over coming up with 1 set of workable PKC beagles rules, I am going to be in oposition. I know it will never work. Just like it hasn't worked so far. I will be speaking to a number of PKC officials besides Larry. And just for the records, Larry has offered me a job in the past. I wasn't interested.
I have never cut anyone's dogs. I have stated that there are some beagle Championships I hold in low personal esteem and value to my breeding program. If they feel that statement includes their dogs, maybe they know the truth abouth their dog's Championships. I know if someone made a statement to me that they felt certain Championships were worthless, I wouldn't consider like they were attacking my dogs. I know my dog's Championship were earned honestly and are valuable to a lot of folks.
Swing, I hunted 2 casts this weekend. In the first cast, my little female who only needs another cast win to finish her Championship was leading the scores. It sounded like to me 3 dogs opened on a track. Only 2 were struck in. Mine clearly opened 3 time and I struck her in as the rules call for. The track didn't circle and the struck dogs were minussed. One of the guys that didn't strike his dog ended up winning the cast. If it had been a Small Pack cast, 3 out of the 4 dogs would have probably been struck in and plus points may have been given even though the rabbit wasn't circled and wasn't seen. The dogs needed to be minnused, they didn't show the cast the rabbit. Almost always, if my little female opens 3 times, the rabbit race is on.
In the afternoon Champion cast, there was only 1 speed and drive points given and Pedde didn't get first on them. 2 of the dogs minussed out on tracks that they started and didn't finish. Pedde never opened on them. Pedde finished with plus points, was close in points to the cast winner, and was competitive under very poor tracking conditions. He is not perfect.
Jerry Livermore was on the first cast as a spectator, he had a nice, young gal that handled his dog.
I do tape some hunts but I have found that it can be hard to call a dog correctly and handle a camcorder at the same time. At this particular hunt, I was more interested in winning a cast than recording it. Both of my dogs were close to finishing Championships. That is not always the case.
If anyone has any questions about my conduct on the cast ask Jerry. I heard him state what a pleasure it was to be on the cast as compared to others he has been on. Jerry has been on a number of casts I have been on, sometimes when I was the judge. He may or may not like me personally, but I think he respects my honesty. I would guess a good number of you folks know Jerry.

houndsound · Post by **houndsound** » Mon Nov 28, 2005 10:13 am

Redtick, I don't think you really get it......I'll just be frank.

EVERYONE KNOWS YOU DON'T LIKE THE TWO RULES IN PKC. EVERYONE KNOWS YOU DON'T LIKE Progressive Pack Trials.

O.k. , enough, we get it!

What you haven't shown is how your dislike of those two things has anything to do with anything.

Why you care who was at the planning meetings and what they did is beyond me. I don't know if it's the case but you just come across sounding bitter and jealous that you weren't involved. Now don't misunderstand me, I'm not accusing you of being bitter and jealous, but just letting you know this is what it looks like to everyone. Who cares how or who came up with the rules.....we've got em' now so either run with them or don't.

I prefer UKC trials over Progressive Pack, but that doesn't mean I don't respect dogs in PP, just cause' it ain't my cup of tea sure doesn't mean they aren't good dogs, most better then anything I've got probablly. And it sure has absolutley nothing to do with PKC not doing well.

Either come up with some proactive positve ways to support PKC or stop repeating the fact that you don't like two formats..........everyone in the world with a computer is clear on that fact. Do you understand? You don't need to ever post that fact again.

dk

houndsound · Post by **houndsound** » Mon Nov 28, 2005 11:45 am

Here's some questions some of you guys who have held PKC hunts can answer for me.

1.) In a Hound and Hunter hunt can a person hunt more then one dog?

2.) In a Hound and Hunter hunt can the hunt director run a dog in the hunt?

dk

Post by **Aaron Bartlett** » Mon Nov 28, 2005 1:42 pm

1. No, not unless he has a handler for the other dogs.
2. Yes

Post by **Aaron Bartlett** » Mon Nov 28, 2005 1:44 pm

Redtick,
I understand that UKC will soon have another format somewhat like ARHA PP and LP in addition to thier H&H, Large Pack and Small Pack formats. Im not up on the Large Pack and Small Pack rules but im pretty sure the new format will make 3 out of 4 formats that UKC has that judges follow the dogs and do the scoring. Will you be boycotting(sp?) UKC now that they have four sets of rules? Just curious.

JMurphy · Post by **JMurphy** » Mon Nov 28, 2005 3:24 pm

Redtick:
A person I know once told me that they thought you were mentally disabled.I am starting to see why.At the rules meeting that Craig Tull had there were several who had competed in the UKC hound and Hunter format.I dont know the two gentlemen that Craig named but Gabe Stockton was there and he had attended several UKC events one of which where I was with him and won a UKC world qualifier.Is that too much for you to understand.In the original Evansville group who held the first hunt there were at least two people who had a history in PKC.Maybe they just didnt think using hound and hunter rules was as important as you seem to.If you have so much pull with Larry Meeks then why didnt he ask you to be at that rules meeting.I watched him with you at that first PKC hunt and it sure didnt seem like he thought you were all that important to me.Now you say you dont know everything but in a previous qoute you"I KNOW I ASKED".Why would the people at PKC even know the trialing history of everyone they talked to..Yes when you say a championship is worthless, people do take that personal and it is a very personal cut on the dogs that hold those championships and to their owners.I have no idea why you are too dumb to get that.Why does it not surprise me that there is some big story to you getting beat.Can you not ever say that you went to a trial and just got beat by a better dog.I will ask this next one in big letters and real; slooooowwwwww for you.WHY DO YOU REFUSE TO ADDRESS THE LIES THAT I HAVE CAUGHT YOU IN?When I was a very small child I told a lie about something that had got broken inside the house.After I received my whipping my Dad explained to me that if you told the truth that you wouldnt have to worry about keeping up with a bunch of lies that you had told.I feel very sorry for you that you didnt have the same upbringing.
A little lesson for you that you are probably much too slow to get.None of these championships that our dogs earn for us mean very much compared to our reputation that we should have of being men of integrity and honesty.You have let that fall in the dust long ago.You can go around claiming that people attack you because they are jealous of you.Why would anyone be jealous of you.Most of the titles that you have on your beagles were put there by someone else.What is there to be jealous of there.I spend a little time studying the History of the old west.In the old west a liar was usually dispised more than a known killer.This was because it was felt a liar couldnt be counted on when it was most important.Something there for you to think about.To reiterate one of Aaron's questions are you now going to boycott UKC since they are implementing other formats?

ringtail · Post by **ringtail** » Mon Nov 28, 2005 3:31 pm

redtick,,,,,,,,,,,what im saying about cutting is in a lot of your post you say dogs should not get any points if rabbit isnt seen,,,,,,i dont care ,,,,,,i know swing, and lynn are known for what they have made of thier dogs whether there was a rabbit seen on the jump or not,,,,now i seen all your videos and if the dogs you have are so hi-fi champions why do you guys pick up the rabbit after it is shot and run to the dogs going here it is ,,to me that is bull shyt,,,,if my dogs can not run the track to the dead rabbit they are gone world champion or not,,,,,,now i know the boy was young in that clip but i never heard anybody tell him to leave it let them find it,,,,,,,,i think this subject is getting really old so i wish you would pick a format and stay with it,,,,,,,,,,,now i know lynn perkins has asked this question to many times and the subject keeps getting pushed aside,,,,,,,,,,did you champion your dogs or did you buy them already championed,,,,,,,NUFF SAID,,,,,,,,,

JMurphy · Post by **JMurphy** » Mon Nov 28, 2005 3:33 pm

Redtick:
You constantly bring up the fact that you were the first to register a dog in PKC.What is this supposed to prove?You seem to think this makes some sort of point but for the life of me I have no idea what that is.What is your point by making this statement?

J.Murphy/Murphy's Kennel

jdmart · Post by **jdmart** » Mon Nov 28, 2005 6:14 pm

Is (Redtick) he Rebel's brother? The guy from Alabama.