Inconsistent measuring ARHA Little pack

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couch potato jim
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Inconsistent measuring ARHA Little pack

Post by couch potato jim » Sat Feb 11, 2012 7:26 pm

I would like to start out by saying I love this format as much as any other format. Every Time i attend a ARHA little pack hunt I have such a good time. As everyone knows ARHA has put in place measuring of hounds. A hound should measure no more than 15 inches. I can understand this requirement "it only makes since". My issues I have is the inconsistency's of what a hound really measures when measured by the person taking measurements for that day. I have seen hounds that "ARE" 13 inches measure in at 14 3/4 and I have seen hounds that "ARE" 14 inches measure in at 15 1/8 Inches. Hounds that "ARE" 15 inches will measure in at 16 1/2. This is my observation since ARHA put this in place. I Have a hound that measures 14 7/8 inches some times she will measure 15 on the money. I have put my hound in I would say about 150 hunts in a for year time frame. She has been in UKC, AKC, ARHA, never had a issue with her measuring in. With the inconsistent measuring my hound did not make a little pack hunt. This incompetent, inconsistent measuring of hounds is not acceptable for me "and I am not the only one felling this way". This is bad for ARHA, Bad for the people that love ARHA little pack, Just bad all the way around. If a hound is over 15 inches it should not be in a hunt BUT! If you have a hound that is 13, 14, 15 inches it should have no problem attending a hunt. These people that are measuring a hound should number one no what they are doing. I have put a lot of time, money in my hound trying to get her to be a Little pack champion having it strip from you for someones incompetents is not right. From what I understand this will be turned into ARHA and it leaves me not knowing if I can run my hound anymore. What happens in this case? If I am still aloud to run my hound in this ARHA little pack format i will try to finish her as a champion and Then I will be done with it. This is not right one weekend your hound will measure in just fine and then the next weekend there is a issue. Until things get better Like i said I will try to finish my hound and then I'm done. Inconsistent measurements are just not a good thing. :moon:
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rabbithunter30
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Re: Inconsistent measuring ARHA Little pack

Post by rabbithunter30 » Sat Feb 11, 2012 7:49 pm

couch potato jim.. i agree with you 100% it is a joke i have hounds that are 15 dead on and 14 3/4... my 14 3/4 hound measured in at 13 5/8 how that is possible i dont know i have put him under the stand a number of times and has always measured 14 3/4 but all of a sudden he measures 13 5/8 :lol: :lol: somone explain that one... not possible unless the person doing the measureing cant read the scale or like you said is incompetent :nod: :nod: which is more likly possible....
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Re: Inconsistent measuring ARHA Little pack

Post by Mark H » Sat Feb 11, 2012 9:37 pm

Jim to answer your question as far as i know unless they changed it if your dog measures out 3 times it can not run in little pack again
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Re: Inconsistent measuring ARHA Little pack

Post by kjohn2hunt » Sat Feb 11, 2012 11:01 pm

If this dog got measured in before the hunt then got measured at the stake then is the breed inspector going to lose the license? This is what I've been hearing since this was put into to place.
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Re: Inconsistent measuring ARHA Little pack

Post by scott calkins » Sun Feb 12, 2012 1:28 am

i myself had issues about the lack of explanation in arhas rule book on how to measure a hound . i pointed this out to the state rep at the time and sent a letter to arha about this. and sugested they use akc standards on how to measure a hound . so at least it would be consistant but no response and got told by some guys in arha here in mi . that arha is not akc so if i dont like the way they do things go back to akc. thats what pisses me of about arha they never fix whats wrong. with the format if they did it would be even better . and less protests and problems. but they dont. thats why i havent run a arha trial in yrs use to every weekend but till they start fixing things in the rules that need fixed will just run akc . were at least things have the same standards as for as rules and measurements :angryfire:
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Re: Inconsistent measuring ARHA Little pack

Post by chapkosbeagles » Sun Feb 12, 2012 7:30 am

Guys just run a smaller hound no big deal I got a.yard full for sale little dogs all mine can make the stand :D

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Re: Inconsistent measuring ARHA Little pack

Post by Ky. Hunter » Sun Feb 12, 2012 8:52 am

chapkosbeagles wrote:Guys just run a smaller hound no big deal I got a.yard full for sale little dogs all mine can make the stand :D
I don't have a problem with mine measuring over, he is 14 1/4"---14 1/2" and measuring is never a problem but if ARHA would honor the cards I would pay the extra money to get an official card and wouldn't have to worry about measuring every hunt just show the card and you are in.

tdog
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Re: Inconsistent measuring ARHA Little pack

Post by tdog » Sun Feb 12, 2012 9:05 am

Please look at this link which is a very good example of how to measure a dog. This picture shows the bone structure of the dog and is a very good example.

http://www.sonic.net/~cdlcruz/GPCC/library/measure.htm


UKC has been measuring for years and although not perfect it works. ARHA will get there too. In the mean time their example on the little pack page seems to be measuring part way up the neck..


Some one please send this to ARHA. Their example on the little pack page will measure out 30% of the hounds which should be fine.

I might go to the world just to watch this measuring... This might be fun..

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Re: Inconsistent measuring ARHA Little pack

Post by Lone Pine Beagles » Sun Feb 12, 2012 9:47 am

As a measurer I've gotta say...
Not all dogs "stand".
Some of your dogs freak out and fight to get away.
Some lock their front legs and lean back.
Some hit the floor and refuse to use their legs.
So the accuracy level is effected according to how well the dog cooperates.

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Re: Inconsistent measuring ARHA Little pack

Post by ebag33 » Sun Feb 12, 2012 9:48 am

I am not defending any organization, but I dont think that measuring incosistencies is a new thing to the sport. I believe it wasnt but a couple years ago that there was drama every weekend over certain hounds measuring in or out in another organization. As far a consistency in measuring it is a tough thing to get when it comes to measuring dogs. I would bet if the same person measures the same dog ten times in a row they would not get the exact same measurement all ten times. I do not disagree that there may be some incompetence when it comes to measuring dogs right now but I think as time goes on people will get better at it and things will clean themselves up. I have dogs that push the bar and I would expect on the wrong day they could measure out.
On a side note I do not like the rule and dont think things should have been changed in the format especially without a consensus from the clubs on whether or not they thought it was problem that needed to be addressed. Of course that is just my opinion.
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Re: Inconsistent measuring ARHA Little pack

Post by tinymwoods » Sun Feb 12, 2012 9:50 am

Ky. Hunter wrote:
chapkosbeagles wrote:Guys just run a smaller hound no big deal I got a.yard full for sale little dogs all mine can make the stand :D
I don't have a problem with mine measuring over, he is 14 1/4"---14 1/2" and measuring is never a problem but if ARHA would honor the cards I would pay the extra money to get an official card and wouldn't have to worry about measuring every hunt just show the card and you are in.
To the best of my understanding you can "buy" an official measure card.
http://arha.com/forms/official_measurem ... cation.pdf
That is the link to the application.

"The Breed Inspector must measure all hounds before they are allowed to enter an ARHA/NKC sanctioned hunt unless the hound has an official measurement card. The Breed Inspector must record the height of the hound on the Hunt Entry Form and place his/her signature in the correct place. If the hound is over 15 inches, the Breed Inspector keeps the form and sends it into NKC along with the hunt results."
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Big Mike
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Re: Inconsistent measuring ARHA Little pack

Post by Big Mike » Sun Feb 12, 2012 12:05 pm

I can certainly understand the rule and the need for it . However, i agree their is a lot of inconsistency in the methods used by the breed inspectors in the measuring process, in my view an even bigger problem is the inconsistency in the equipment used. I have seen every type of measuring stand you could think of , including a yard stick hand cut into three pieces one piece of it used as the cross bar. The obvious question to me is, who certifies the stands?
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Re: Inconsistent measuring ARHA Little pack

Post by jumpNrun » Sun Feb 12, 2012 1:33 pm

as a breed inspector and i havent been doin it that long, ive watched several diff people measure dogs and very rarely do you see it done right ive seen people tryin to hold the dogs up as tall as they can putting thr hands under the belly (not right)its not a bench show we want a natural stance not perked up not layin down just a relaxed posture some dogs do not like to be this way so it makes it alot harder. and for consistant measureing not all dogs will stand thats just a part of it. and i do not agree with the measuring rule by the way, pain in the ass and more conflict between beaglers. and jmo another money scam with the permanant measure card. but i will run arha and support my local club just for the love of beagling and we use the stand that chip sells cost a pretty penny but its a nice one. that yard stick idea is for the birds also i figure i will just run a smaller dog from now on if it becomes that big of a problem but i have 2 14 1/2in males that will be put in trials and i will watch very carefully how the breed inspector handels these dogs if i dont like it i will protest his ways u get 3 times 3 diff people if your over your out. then they also have akc pkc ukc to try as well boys.
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Re: Inconsistent measuring ARHA Little pack

Post by scott calkins » Sun Feb 12, 2012 5:07 pm

i agree with jumpnrun to many people try to pick up on dogs and make a show stance is not correct it should be a natural stance not stacked or pushed up . if the dog dont cower at the measureing than let stand natural. and to change the rules was stupid . in a format that doesnt score speed and drive to me is dumb . what advantage would a bigger dog have other than speed. it dont make them better jump dogs or check dogs. to me it just shows how the arha board of directers are out of touch with the people like us who pay our money to trial in arha. they ask us to vote on matters but dont follow the vote they just do what they want. there was a guy on here starting a new registry and gonna take the best rules and scoring method from each format and asked us the beaglers to tell him what we wanted . i hope it works out i think he is on the rite track using our input. after all it is our money that supports the registry. as far as iam concerned by arha not taking into concideration how we feel there giving us beaglers a :blackeye: . i do love running arha and enjoy it but dont like wasting my money on some mistake because arha wont set a standard for dogs to be measured by so there is no mistakes i feel they at least owe us that much for supporting the registry. :nod:
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Re: Inconsistent measuring ARHA Little pack

Post by TOUCHSTONE » Mon Feb 13, 2012 1:40 am

I am not very active at little pack hunts. I have been to a few and my dogs usually placed and I enjoyed hanging out and listening to the dogs run.

I called them at the office listed on their website. I explained why I felt the measuring explanaion should be reviewed. I specifically pointed out that the following should be highlighted in the explanation: Locating the top of the withers accompanied by a skeletal diagram. Measurement from top of withers.
Placement of the legs with front legs perpendicular to ground and same width apart from elbow to foot.
It is also important for the hind legs to be back behind the dog far enough for the hock to be
perpendicular to the ground.

The dog should be relaxed but not bulking or cringing. A dog that normally stands with slightly bent pasterns should not be made to stand up on their toes.

This is the way measurement should be done and the way it is expected to be done In every registry that I know of. No fault for taking after any of the registries that measure this way. Same height measuring procedure for all breeds of canines in all registries.

If someone is measuring your dog incorrectly there seems to be some responsability to teach the individual how to measure correctly.

I believe there is value in breeding and competing with dogs that meet the 15" breed height standard. Every knowledgable breeder should know or learn how to correctly measure a dog.
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