The American Beagler Forum

8.Any hound that runs through the established check area, continually barking and leading the other hounds through the check area shall receive minus 10 points. Note: It is the intent of this rule to penalize the hound that continually overruns the check area and continues to bark. It is not the intent of the rule to penalize the hound that runs through the check area for a short distance, immediately stops barking when he realizes there is no scent, and returns to the check area to attempt to work out the check. It is also the intention of this rule to penalize the hounds that do not return to the point of loss on checks.

This is how I see the rule.

Any hound that runs through the established check area, continually barking and leading the other hounds through the check area shall receive minus 10 points.This is just the rule in its rough and unexplained form.

Intention of Rule = What the rule is trying to accomplish.
Note: It is the intent of this rule to penalize the hound that continually overruns the check area and continues to bark.Opening rough statement to smooth out the rule.
More clarification on what the rule is meant to do.
It is also the intention of this rule to penalize the hounds that do not return to the point of loss on checks.


What the rule is not meant to be used for!
It is not the intent of the rule to penalize the hound that runs through the check area for a short distance, immediately stops barking when he realizes there is no scent, and returns to the check area to attempt to work out the check.


Example 1
In order to help you better understand how I see this rule I am going to show you another rule for scoring positive points that do not make any cross reference to any of the dogs doing anything worthy of minusing them for a mistake.

2.The judge shall award 10 points for a check. If one or more hounds over run a turn in the line, or lose the line, and another hound, behind them, turns with the line, or carries the line on beyond their point of loss, gives mouth, and makes forward progress, he must be awarded checks points.


Example 2
Now here is an example of how it is listed in the scoring of positive points when something is happening to enable positive points plus something related to the minusing of points also.


1.Definition: A check occurs when it is evident that there is a breakdown in the forward progress of the chase. The hounds do not have to cease barking in the check area, for it to be considered a check. (See rule IX.F.6. Note: concerning hounds barking in the check area.) If it is evident that no hound is making forward progress on the line, then a check has occurred. A hound must claim the check, by giving mouth and making forward progress. At a check, hounds should first work close to where the check occurred, then extending the search further a field to regain the line. Note: A check is not determined by elapsed time. Forward progress has no pre-set distance.

As you see in the 2nd example when there is concern about this rule conflicting with one of the minusing rules it gets clarification. In the 1st example it is even brought out that an over run has occured but there is no clarification.
The only reason that I can see for no clarification is that nothing happened that would indicate a minus should be given.
The reason a minus is not given is because in essence the dogs who over run have already suffered a loss in the overall scheme by the dog that turned the line being awarded positive points.

To show you My point even farther lets say a dog over runs and dog number 2 turns it. Dog 1 gets a -10 and dog 2 get a +10. If you do give a minus this would work like a catch 22 almost and to stay consistent with this trian of thinking in scoring lets now do this Dog A gets the strike then we should minus Dogs B-F for not doing their job correctly 100% of the time. I know sounds a little extreme. LOL
OK guys feel free to pick it apart, ask questions, or just post your thoughts, Paul

Paul, this really should be on the ARHA board! But then you would probably be labeled a trouble maker. LOL!!!
In my opinion if the lead dog (A) over runs the end of the line, and the second dog (B) turns him, then give a check to B. A gets nothing.Now if A pulls B over the end and C turns them, give A a minus for pulling B out of the check area.
Now try this on for size- Dog A is leading the pack at a dead run, the rabbit hangs a 90 degree turn to the right. The pack misses the turn by 10 yards. What do you do? You could pick up dogs B,C, D, E, and F for running off game. Because it appears that the other 5 dogs were running the lead dog and not the rabbit. The rule book clearly says running anything except rabbit is considered off-game!!!
I bet that would go over real good!!!

Hey Dale , How is everything going? I hope it is great. Back to the topic. I like the off game idea. Lets try this on for size ...Now if A pulls B over the end and C turns them, give C the check give A nothing for the over run but B gets picked up for running the other dog because obviously he was running him or dog B would have made the turn. Seriously how many dogs can actually over run the same exact corner if they were all tracking the rabbit, All they are doing is feeding off of the front dog doing all the work. Basically they are just running behind him caught up in the moment barking out of pure excitement. LOL Sometimes the excitement gets me too. ,Paul

Ok I was thinking some more and realized this little rule that I believe to be where people get this pulling thing from. p.s. Dale dont take this the wrong way.LOL

7.Any hound that leaves the check area and is observed barking and pulling the other pack members away from the established check area shall receive minus 10 points.

The underlined word is used in this rule and not in rule #8 and I feel alot of people interweave the two rules accidently. Something else to consider is the word established. This check in rule #8 is not established until it is evident that there was a loss either by breakdown or another dog turning it.

I also think rule #9 is something to think about, and this is my reasoning

9.A hound that enters the check area, but makes no attempt to work the track shall receive minus 10 points. Note: It is the intent of this rule to penalize the hound that continually "feeds" off the work of the other hounds in the cast.

Read the NOTE carefully... The whole intent of this rule is to weed out the dogs that do not do the work and is that not what we are trying to do "BRING BACK THE BEST RABBIT DOG". So consider this in rule #8 would it not make sense that any dog that follows another dog in an over run be just as guilty of feeding off the others dogs work because if he was scenting the rabbit he would not over run as well. Just some more to chew on, Paul

Lets try again, After taking a fresh look at this rule I think that I have made it too difficult. 8.Any hound that runs through the established check area, continually barking and leading the other hounds through the check area shall receive minus 10 points.
I think the italic words are the key. In order to use this rule all elements have to be present.
1.You must have an ESTABLISHED CHECK AREA.
2.You must have a dog barking continually.
3.The dog must be leading the other hounds through the check area.
If any of these 3 criteria are not met you can't minus the dog.

Nowhere in this rule does it mention over runs. I believe now that the word established makes it apparent that this can't refer to an over run because at the time a dog over runs there is not an ESTABLISHED CHECK AREA.

Here are some rules on checks in order to have a clear understanding of a check and when it occurs.

1.Definition: A check occurs when it is evident that there is a breakdown in the forward progress of the chase. The hounds do not have to cease barking in the check area, for it to be considered a check. (See rule IX.F.6. Note: concerning hounds barking in the check area.) If it is evident that no hound is making forward progress on the line, then a check has occurred. A hound must claim the check, by giving mouth and making forward progress. At a check, hounds should first work close to where the check occurred, then extending the search further a field to regain the line. Note: A check is not determined by elapsed time. Forward progress has no pre-set distance.

2.The judge shall award 10 points for a check. If one or more hounds over run a turn in the line, or lose the line, and another hound, behind them, turns with the line, or carries the line on beyond their point of loss, gives mouth, and makes forward progress, he must be awarded checks points.

In reference to rule #1 I dont know about you but when dogs are over running a turn I do not know they are not making forward progress until they come back or another dog turns it.
at the time they come back the check area is established not before.at that point any dogs that barks and pulls them through the established check area they would get a minus.

Also in reference to rule #2 there is no cross reference when it speaks of over run a turn in the line.

Come on guys lets hear from you, Paul

Definition: A check occurs when it is evident that there is a breakdown in the forward progress of the chase.

With this being the definition of a check. I do not believe that Rule #8 applies to when the dogs are making forward progress because at that time the CHECK HAS NOT BEEN ESTABLISHED.

Sorry guys, I keep posting because I am thinking outloud, Paul

Something else I just realized. If you look at the minus rules, 6-12 deal with check area and at the same time rule #8 is the only rule that uses the word ESTABLISHED in connection with the check area. This even leads me to feel more strongly that this rule is not speaking of the race while appearing to be making forward progress and definitely is not refering to over runs. cya, Paul

Come on Guys , I wont take your birthday. And if you are still timid or just feel a little beat up from the recent shananiguns some people have pulled. Send me an email or pm, I wont expose you and your thinking which might not align with others in higher places that could take that birthday. I just want to cover any side someone might come at me with when someone trys to tell me my train of thought doesn't hold water. As far as I can tell the more I look at this it is looking more and more like this rule has either been misinterpeted or just twisted to try and campaign a certain agenda. thanks , Paul

p.s. I wont hold it against anyone who does not post on this.

From rule #8 again ............Note: It is the intent of this rule to penalize the hound that continually overruns the check area and continues to bark. It is not the intent of the rule to penalize the hound that runs through the check area for a short distance, immediately stops barking when he realizes there is no scent, and returns to the check area to attempt to work out the check. It is also the intention of this rule to penalize the hounds that do not return to the point of loss on checks.

When over run is mentioned here it refers to a check area not a turn in the line and the turn is not a check until there is a evident loss.


REMEMBER..................
1.Definition: A check occurs when it is evident that there is a breakdown in the forward progress of the chase. The hounds do not have to cease barking in the check area, for it to be considered a check. (See rule IX.F.6. Note: concerning hounds barking in the check area.) If it is evident that no hound is making forward progress on the line, then a check has occurred. A hound must claim the check, by giving mouth and making forward progress. At a check, hounds should first work close to where the check occurred, then extending the search further a field to regain the line. Note: A check is not determined by elapsed time. Forward progress has no pre-set distance.
................NOT BEFORE IT IS EVIDENT

Just in case someone missed my point the over run occurs prior to the check being ESTABLISHED. cya, Paul