Poor Judging is Our Own fault

[gunslinger]

X2

[island ridge hounds]

i think one of the most misplaced rules are the minus's. i've heard judges say they don't like giving or minusing out hound's. i think if your not going to minus the hound why plus him. i saw several hounds win cast that should have been in the truck. pulling is the biggest. you get a hound that pulls fifty yards one way then comes back and goes fifty the other way each time pulling hounds with him. they usually have a come on mouth the other dogs are ready to roll and this dog just puts grief in the mix for the rest of the hounds. alot of the pulls are getting scored as checks. patients with some judges would be a good thing then i think they could see the hounds mistakes. this year at the world i thought the judging was good, but i think the minuses were over looked.

[island ridge hounds]

i think one of the most misplaced rules are the minus's. i've heard judges say they don't like giving or minusing out hound's. i think if your not going to minus the hound why plus him. i saw several hounds win cast that should have been in the truck. pulling is the biggest. you get a hound that pulls fifty yards one way then comes back and goes fifty the other way each time pulling hounds with him. they usually have a come on mouth the other dogs are ready to roll and this dog just puts grief in the mix for the rest of the hounds. alot of the pulls are getting scored as checks. patients with some judges would be a good thing then i think they could see the hounds mistakes. this year at the world i thought the judging was good, but i think the minuses were over looked.

[wildcatfan0309]

My thoughts on the worst thing about little pack is the fact that a 6 month old unstarted pup can get get stuck by a briar and yelp out 3 times and get on the clock then another dog works up a track and gets a rabbit going then the unstarted pup gets 10 strike points
The hound that worked the track up then can dominate the race running 100 ft in front of the other dogs and make every turn and never make a 15 second break down and run till time is up and the 6 month old unstarted pup wins the cast
Im not bashing little pack
It can be alot of fun
But thats why i dont trial in lil pack anymore
I guess what my point was is that the 15 second check is to long of a break down
My thoughts are i that 15 seconds isnt a open check but instead its a loss
Jmo

[rabbitatfarm]

Personally, I'll take 2 or 3 minuses over a zero any day of the week. IMO, the dog with minuses is at least trying; the dog with zero is out for a stroll. I've had my dog minus out while pulling sticks from a brush pile. We all--judge included--knew there was a rabbit there. He just would not come out. Another judge might have awarded a strike. There are several "grey areas" in the rule book. My dog was awarded a strike because he barked three times when a rabbit was flushed while he was taking a dump. Doesn't happen often, but.... Another judge might not have awarded a strike.

It works the other way too. I had a dog draw a minus for "happy barking" while on the way to a dog that had barked twice. Mine got put on the clock and got the non-produce. I'm sure we can all find a rule we don't like, but we still abide by them or find another format. It's still a great game. At the end of the day all that matters is did all your dogs came home with you.

I heard one complaint that a time out was not called while guys caught up their dogs after a dead-track call. The fault lies more with the handler than the judge, but they subsequently did not get their full hour on the ground. In a close scoring cast that matters. The judge in the cast I watched added a couple of minutes at each dead-track.

Larry

[Casey Harner]

Personally, I'll take 2 or 3 minuses over a zero any day of the week. IMO, the dog with minuses is at least trying; the dog with zero is out for a stroll. I've had my dog minus out while pulling sticks from a brush pile. We all--judge included--knew there was a rabbit there. He just would not come out. Another judge might have awarded a strike. There are several "grey areas" in the rule book. My dog was awarded a strike because he barked three times when a rabbit was flushed while he was taking a dump. Doesn't happen often, but.... Another judge might not have awarded a strike.

It works the other way too. I had a dog draw a minus for "happy barking" while on the way to a dog that had barked twice. Mine got put on the clock and got the non-produce. I'm sure we can all find a rule we don't like, but we still abide by them or find another format. It's still a great game. At the end of the day all that matters is did all your dogs came home with you.

I heard one complaint that a time out was not called while guys caught up their dogs after a dead-track call. The fault lies more with the handler than the judge, but they subsequently did not get their full hour on the ground. In a close scoring cast that matters. The judge in the cast I watched added a couple of minutes at each dead-track.

Larry

Only minus I don't want is non producing and off game, which is the only thing I can think of besides disturbing the pack in the little pack.

If my dog can't score or don't smell it, then they need to shut their mouth and follow the leader.

[warddog]

I competition coon hunted for numerous years as well as judged many a nite hunts and what I learned over all those years was that when I CHOOSE to do so I was at the discretion of a JUDGE. A Judge is a judge be it sitting on the bench in a court of law or in a competition hunt as they only rule on THEIR personal interpretation of the written word of the law or rules. Laws and rules may be objective BUT the circumstances leading to the applicability of them is subjective. I have seen many handlers strike and or tree their dog on another handlers dog, babbling automatic strike dogs that stay alive in a cast because other dogs get out there and strike an actual track, slick treeing machines and handlers who see eyes in dens or go blind when they are obviously there. I say this only to because after many, many years of running as well as judging competition I QUIT because I came to realize that there was absolutely no way to keep subjectivity out of the game. YES, the UKC coon hound trail rules are actually pretty objective, in how to score plus strike and tree points as well as the minus and the circle BUT that all gives way to which hound is actually doing what and when. Even if the judges were to run after the hounds they will NEVER see it all and so that is the opening for subjectivity to enter the competition. What I witnessed over my 20+ years of night hunting is that every cast was at the discretion of the judge who made decisions on what they heard and what the handlers told them, most of which was never seen but heard until the game was seen or not at the end of the strike. I came to realize that the interpretation of ALL this varied from judge to judge with very little consistency in interpretation although the written rules were very precise and unambiguous and that many times the best dog did NOT win the cast. I then decided to make the CHOICE to not spend any more time, effort or money to have someone else judge my dog upon their interpretation because my dogs did what they did without needing to be judged and compared to others AND "I" no longer found that of importance to "ME" either. When one makes the CHOICE to attend trials they are accepting that ALL these things can and do happen very frequently either purposely or by mistake. NOT everything can be seen nor is everyone's interpretation of the circumstances the same perception. This evidently is no different in the beagle trial world as I read these discussions about rules and judging all the time when the facts are it is all about the subjective interpretation of the rules or the circumstances. What is ambiguous about one of the most controversial rules I see which is a dog over 15" is disqualified or a dog over 13" is in the 15" class. That to me is pretty objective and BLUNT but what is subjective is how they are measured and by whom! AGAIN one makes the CHOICE to enter into this subjectivity especially if you are campaigning a borderline dog.