Breeder VS. Pedigree

[KesslerBeagles]

question for all you guru's i buy a branko pup from joe also buy another brank pup from danny i raise these pups then decide to breed the 2 dogs someone ask me what kind of dogs are ya raising are the dogs branko's dogs their shure not northway or patch jb

I would say these are wvduece beagles, derived from the branko lines because you viewed the sire and dam and took their strengths and weaknesses into consideration and you made the choice if this particular cross would be successful or not, but I'm no guru, just my opinion.

[Dr. Chris]

I think breeder AND pedigree have to go hand in hand.The pedigree or papers are only as good as the man /breeder that is attesting to the validity of them.
Kessler Beagles. I applaud your post! It is refreshing to read something intelligent and well thought out.

I agree 100%. Good topic and Kessler Beagles, great post! Many great points.

[S.R.Patch]

I agree with alot you say on your last post but, If you buy a pup from Joe and you buy a pup from danny, then you call Mr Branko(the well) and ask him what he thinks and tell him how they run, what's the frist thing you think he's gona ask you? I bet it is, whats the pedigree of the two pups. He needs to know the roadmap behind the two hounds or all the work is lost. Without the roadmap,the going forward is unknown. the blending the tendencies the advantage of knowing the past and what's proven is lost.
When Randall bred Swifteagle, Mike argued that we had much better stud hounds, Randall said, I know the raodmap on this hound back to Adam and if there's anything to the powers of heredity, he'll make me a happy daddy...70 yrs of breeding had taught him this little bit of worth while knowledge. If we don't learn from the mistakes of the past, we're dest'in to repeat them. Likewise we use the success of the past on our way forward.
The other parts of breeding, standard and selection must also follow suit...

[Pike Ridge Beagles]

I agree with alot you say on your last post but, If you buy a pup from Joe and you buy a pup from danny, then you call Mr Branko(the well) and ask him what he thinks and tell him how they run, what's the frist thing you think he's gona ask you? I bet it is, whats the pedigree of the two pups. He needs to know the roadmap behind the two hounds or all the work is lost. Without the roadmap,the going forward is unknown. the blending the tendencies the advantage of knowing the past and what's proven is lost.
When Randall bred Swifteagle, Mike argued that we had much better stud hounds, Randall said, I know the raodmap on this hound back to Adam and if there's anything to the powers of heredity, he'll make me a happy daddy...70 yrs of breeding had taught him this little bit of worth while knowledge. If we don't learn from the mistakes of the past, we're dest'in to repeat them. Likewise we use the success of the past on our way forward.
The other parts of breeding, standard and selection must also follow suit...

Patch,
I agree with your post but can you agree that Willet Randall was a great breeder? So do you think the pedigrees or the engineering of the breedings was more significant in the success of his kennel and the Patch hounds longevity?
I really don't think there is a right or wrong answer here because both are significant but I gave more merit to the breeder.

[S.R.Patch]

At this time, 47 votes and 27 of them for pedigrees? WOW! I believe this shows the priorities and mentality of what’s going thru the minds of the majority of the people {at leased those that participated in this particular poll}, there are a lot of “puppy mills” and “dog traders” on this forum, all about the "red ink" and "quick cash" to most. Sad! This kind of "proof" of how people feel is exactly why 85% of gunhunters do not honor or respect "registered dogs".

This was the post I was refereing to. And the isses are, you calling people here puppy mills and dog traders,
the pedigree is all about how much red ink you can stick in it and the quick cash to be made.
and you having a exact % of gunhunters that don't respect registered dogs...
to that I say you backdoor flap is open... ... I'm glad you reversed your opinion and now the troops are cheering you on... ... Kick-on...

[mike crabtree]

i run a few patch hounds, and from what i can see, the Patch Line died with MR. Randall.

Most Patch Dogs i have ran with are mediocre at best, with such a lack of nose they cant circle a rabbit, or wont bark enuff to know where they are at in a race. I would say the Patch line has been ruined for the most part by people breeding Pedigrees and not dogs.

Before all the Patch breeders on here get there pantys in a wad realize I love and run Patch hounds myself.

[S.R.Patch]

I agree with alot you say on your last post but, If you buy a pup from Joe and you buy a pup from danny, then you call Mr Branko(the well) and ask him what he thinks and tell him how they run, what's the frist thing you think he's gona ask you? I bet it is, whats the pedigree of the two pups. He needs to know the roadmap behind the two hounds or all the work is lost. Without the roadmap,the going forward is unknown. the blending the tendencies the advantage of knowing the past and what's proven is lost.
When Randall bred Swifteagle, Mike argued that we had much better stud hounds, Randall said, I know the raodmap on this hound back to Adam and if there's anything to the powers of heredity, he'll make me a happy daddy...70 yrs of breeding had taught him this little bit of worth while knowledge. If we don't learn from the mistakes of the past, we're dest'in to repeat them. Likewise we use the success of the past on our way forward.
The other parts of breeding, standard and selection must also follow suit...

Patch,
I agree with your post but can you agree that Willet Randall was a great breeder? So do you think the pedigrees or the engineering of the breedings was more significant in the success of his kennel and the Patch hounds longevity?
I really don't think there is a right or wrong answer here because both are significant but I gave more merit to the breeder.

I agree the times and circumstances forced Willet to learn the truths and the science of breeding hounds. 70 yrs at school is a long time and anyone ignoring his advice is foolish.
Randall sold many breeding pairs of pups to folks. These matchings of the pedigrees was done for the future of the line hounds yet to come, he didn't know how the pups themselves would turn out at that point, but the bring together of the blood they caried had been proven to be successful from the roadmap of the past...

[Pike Ridge Beagles]

I can not disagree with your points Patch due to the significance of both the breeder and the history behind the dogs...but lets consider a hypothetical scenerio. Say a fairly educated man with ethics and all around good smarts and common sense was given twenty random beagles all from different lines and he knew nothing about their history. He watches them run and then starts to select matings and begins the culling process. What do you feel played the most important rule if he developed a great line of beagles?

[Pine Mt Beagles]

YOU CAN'T HAVE A BREEDER WITHOUT A PEDIGREE OR A PEDIGREE WITH OUT A BREEDER,,,,, IF THE BREEDER IS CROOKED WHAT GOOD IS THE PED.,,,,,THIS IS A SERIOUSLY GOOD QUESTION,FIRST TIME I HAVE HEARD IT PUT LIKE THAT .......
PINE MT BEAGLES

[Briarhoppers]

Good replies - keep them coming! I realize that the BREEDER and PEDIGREE go hand in hand and most all of us look closely, study and consider both seriously before making a purchase.

Say you are looking to purchase a pup from the next state over from a guy you've never heard of, but he has made a cross that looks awesome on paper. The PEDIGREE alone will only give us an "idea" of what you might expect in a pup. However, this breeder you've never heard of may have no idea what a quality, solid beagle is and can't see the glaring faults in his dogs. He may have bought two culls that happen to be out of big name dogs and then bred them and their weakness and faults are amplified rather than their strengths complimenting each other.

Then on the other had you plan to purchase a pup from the next state over and the BREEDER is well known and has a solid reputation for knowing dogs and producing quality hounds. You know before he makes a cross, he has spent 100's of hours watching his dogs in different situations and conditions in the field and has a clear understanding on their strengths and weaknesses and when he does decide to make a cross it is based on well thought out game plan.

Pedigree is important, but in my opinion, I'd put more stock in the Breeder than the Pedigree alone.

-Pete

[KesslerBeagles]

At this time, 47 votes and 27 of them for pedigrees? WOW! I believe this shows the priorities and mentality of what’s going thru the minds of the majority of the people {at leased those that participated in this particular poll}, there are a lot of “puppy mills” and “dog traders” on this forum, all about the "red ink" and "quick cash" to most. Sad! This kind of "proof" of how people feel is exactly why 85% of gunhunters do not honor or respect "registered dogs".

This was the post I was refereing to. And the isses are, you calling people here puppy mills and dog traders,
the pedigree is all about how much red ink you can stick in it and the quick cash to be made.
and you having a exact % of gunhunters that don't respect registered dogs...
to that I say you backdoor flap is open... ... I'm glad you reversed your opinion and now the troops are cheering you on... ... Kick-on...

I believe your taking my words out of context. I did not call the people on this forum puppy mills and dog traders. You left out the part where I said; {at leased those that participated in this particular poll}, referring to 27 people of the 47 at the time of my comment. I do stand by, that I believe there are people that believe this way and own, breed and sell beagles with the wrong priorities in mind, but I did not refer to “all” on here being that way.

I did not refer to pedigrees as; “the pedigree is all about how much red ink you can stick in it and the quick cash to be made”, that was your version of my comment. I believe, though a pedigree has its purpose it should not over ride the quality of a dog, common sense or dictate a breeding. It is the breeder that puts the pieces of the puzzle together, not the pedigree. The pedigree is just one of many pieces of the puzzle. My comment was towards the individuals that breed pedigrees to pedigrees only for the express purpose of appearance on paper to sell puppies.

Again you changed the context of my words. I never said I had an “exact” number of % of gun hunters, my exact comment was “This kind of "proof" of how people feel is exactly why 85% of gun hunters do not honor or respect "registered dogs". Again, I was referring to gun hunters being exposed to more people that promote pedigrees than the actual dogs in their kennels, but my comment was {exactly why} not {exactly 85%}.

As far as; { I'm glad you reversed your opinion and now the troops are cheering you on... ... Kick-on... }, I am not sure what your talking about. I don’t mind you disagreeing with me, but I do ask that you don’t twist and take my words out of context. I did not “reverse” my opinion and I do stand by what I stated earlier. If I offended anybody, I do apologize, I didn’t state anything to start an argument, but I won’t apologize for my opinion.

[S.R.Patch]

...Where did I say "all" people, Ok I agree you only said people on this post were puppy mills and dog traders... ...Glad to meet ya... are the 27 labled that way because they dont agree with you I just don't understand why their labled that way

Does your 85% of gunhunter have a running slide rule...how did you come up with this number does it change state to state is it 85% as a Country as a whole

It's not your opinion that bothers me, it's your judgement of others that sticks in the crawl...no mind... I've got my sea legs on...

[RiverBottom]

A pedigree is a record of whats been done, nothing more. Lots of people compare pedigrees to road maps. If it is a road map, it only shows you where you have already been. What's ahead is still blank until you get there.

If you are the one that made the pedigree, it can tell you what you already know or did know at one time. If someone other than you filled in the blanks, all the pedigree tells you is a list of dog names and maybe some titles earned by those dogs. It can't tell you what kind of voice those dogs had, how they acted in the kennel, did their feet hold up well after lots of running in tough conditions, did they trail the other dogs when they were young, how hard were they to break off deer, were they a good mother or did they loose some of their pups, or a thousand other things a good breeder knows without having to look at the papers. That kind of information has to be earned the hard way and it can't be found at the AKC.

[SilverZuk]

YOU CAN'T HAVE A BREEDER WITHOUT A PEDIGREE OR A PEDIGREE WITH OUT A BREEDER,,,,,

You might want to re-word that.
You can breed without a pedigree.
I know several guys that produce some very nice dogs, none have pedigrees except what the owner knows.
In some cases they know 3 or 4 generations by memory, other times they know nothing other than the performance of the parents.

Look at the post directly above the one I quoted.
I would rather take 20 some random beagles with no pedigrees, run them, select ones to breed opposed to looking at a pedigree and trying to make a decision based on a bunch of dogs I have never seen run.

The emphasis of "champion" is way too high on some people's list, while many others are hung up on a name.

[SilverZuk]

A pedigree is a record of whats been done, nothing more. Lots of people compare pedigrees to road maps. If it is a road map, it only shows you where you have already been. What's ahead is still blank until you get there.

If you are the one that made the pedigree, it can tell you what you already know or did know at one time. If someone other than you filled in the blanks, all the pedigree tells you is a list of dog names and maybe some titles earned by those dogs. It can't tell you what kind of voice those dogs had, how they acted in the kennel, did their feet hold up well after lots of running in tough conditions, did they trail the other dogs when they were young, how hard were they to break off deer, were they a good mother or did they loose some of their pups, or a thousand other things a good breeder knows without having to look at the papers. That kind of information has to be earned the hard way and it can't be found at the AKC.

That is a very good post and I agree 100%