Breeder VS. Pedigree

[Tim H]

I think everyone who has any sense would look for the best in both pedigree and breeder. Given the choice I would rather have a dog with proven genetics that make the dog what it is than to have some breeders name on the paper that won't change what the dog is. I don't know of a single breeder that has actually added anything to the gene pool that wasn't already there and I hope I never do

[Pine Mt Beagles]

ZUK
YOU HAVE A GOOD AND VALID POINT.BUT I LIKE THE WORDING JUST LIKE IT IS ,EVERY HOUND IN MY KENNEL I KNOW AT LEAST -5-GENS BACK HOW THEY RUN WHAT THEY PRODUCE ETC.IF YOU SHOW ME A GOOD DOG I WANT TO BRED TO IT'S SIRE OR DAM..IF I SEE A HOUND I LIKE RUNNING SOME WHERE, I WILL ASK ABOUT THE(PED) BLOOD LINE FIRST .I DON'T CARE WHO BRED IT, IF THE BREEDER IS LYING ABOUT THE PAPERS THE HOUND WILL TELL ON HIM IN THE FIELD.THERE IS AN OLD SAYING( EVEN A BLIND HOG FINDS AN ACORN NOW AND THEN). MEANS EVERY ONE CAN MAKE A GOOD CROSS SOME TIMES,,,BUT I HAVE A SILGHT ADVANTAGE ON SOME OF THE YOUNGER GUY'S I HAVE SAW A LOT OF HOUNDS RUN.AND HAVE PERSONALY OWNED A LOT OF BLOOD LINES SO I KNOW THE GOOD AND BAD OF MANY BLOOD LINES. AS YOU CAN TELL BY THE LONG WINDED REPLY I LOVE TO TALK ABOUT BREEDING.. I WOULD LIKE TO SEE SOME NEW LINES STARTED SO MANY LINES ARE BEING BRED OUT,I LIKE TO ADD SOME NEW BLOOD NOW AND THEN BUT IT IS GETTING HARD TO FIND. ANY GOOD LUCK AND
KEEP'EM RUNING
PINE MT BEAGLES

[Dr. Chris]

I believe, though a pedigree has its purpose it should not over ride the quality of a dog, common sense or dictate a breeding. It is the breeder that puts the pieces of the puzzle together, not the pedigree. The pedigree is just one of many pieces of the puzzle.

I would rather take 20 some random beagles with no pedigrees, run them, select ones to breed opposed to looking at a pedigree and trying to make a decision based on a bunch of dogs I have never seen run. The emphasis of "champion" is way too high on some people's list, while many others are hung up on a name.

Two very good posts with valid points. I agree 100%.
Genetics are really harder to figure out than most believe. I would love to meet the person that masters it. Just because you have two really well bred hounds, when you breed them, it totally depends on if the chemistry mixes well, you may or may not produce what you want. I believe a breeder that knows and has seen the Sire, Dam, Grand Sire, Grand Dam and etc… run and knows what to add or take away because he knows their faults and strengths, he has the better chance of success than going by the pedigrees, because even if the ink is red and they have many FC in the pedigrees, they still have a family tree that is full of strengths and weaknesses.

SilverZuk, You are right in your comment, but this would take too much time, work and money for most, but it would be the right way and I believe it is the way that most successful breeders from the past or present do it with or without pedigrees.

[tommyg]

First of all I'm no expert breeder,I have had success and failures breeding. I still belive in what an old man told me about Breeding. "TAKE THE BEST,BREED TO THE BEST,AND HOPE FOR THE BEST" Sounds like its hit and miss but its worked for me. I don't breed papers I breed Rabbit Hounds. I don't care how their bred as long as they get the job done right,and are not trashy. I have bred 2 good jump dogs and got good jump dogs and so on,I have made breedings that should have thrown power houses that were PETS for kids. I also belive there is throw backs that will get traits from hounds far back in their lenage. I know one thing I have learned that the female is just as imporant in breeding than the male,thats why I use no Brood Bitches that can't be used for hunting. JMO

[Tim H]

by SilverZuk The emphasis of "champion" is way too high on some people's list, while many others are hung up on a name.

That assumes that people are ONLY looking at pedigrees for the champions. What about those who study the linage to increase their odds of locking in what they like in the hounds they see?

by SilverZuk I would rather take 20 some random beagles with no pedigrees, run them, select ones to breed opposed to looking at a pedigree and trying to make a decision based on a bunch of dogs I have never seen run.

Wouldn't you rather have the pedigrees AND see them run?

When people over emphasize or become too dismissive about one part of the breeding puzzle they are making a mistake. I'm not trying to pick on you SilverZuk, you are just saying what some others are saying as well and your quotes were easier to use to explain my point.

[SilverZuk]

ZUK
BUT I HAVE A SILGHT ADVANTAGE ON SOME OF THE YOUNGER GUY'S I HAVE SAW A LOT OF HOUNDS RUN.

There is where a pedigree is useful.
You know the dog, or at least seen enough of its offspring to know the type of traits you will likely get from that cross.

That assumes that people are ONLY looking at pedigrees for the champions. What about those who study the linage to increase their odds of locking in what they like in the hounds they see?

That is what the biggest problem with people who are pedigree crazy. They are looking for specific accomplishments of single dogs. I see posts on this board weekly that are looked at most as an all star cast. I am not a breeder, but I can tell by the comments those guys are playing "fantasty beagler".

Wouldn't you rather have the pedigrees AND see them run?

Yes, but how they run is the important part. Why they run that way is secondary.

I got into field trialing to learn dogs. I could care less about titles, winning, or anything else. I wanted to see what was out there and what I like best. I have seen enough dogs run to know exactly what I want in my dog. When I see dogs that I like, I ask about the pedigree. I don't memorize them, but do remember certain names that kept popping up.
I saw a lot of dogs that had Ace in the Hole in the pedigree. I have a gip that is 2nd generation out of Ole Bad Cliff. I saw others with Bad Cliff that I liked their hunt and hard hitting style. I also like a clean marked tri color with good conformation (running conformation, not show conformation). I have noted dogs out of others such as Elk Creek Gentle George that I really liked.

I like a specific type of dog that is probably not ideal for ARHA LP. I don't care, I went to trials to get educated and I have found the style dog I like. Now I have to find some crosses that I like, make a few of my own and see what happens. Ideally, by the time I die I will have a consistent kennel that produces dogs that act a like, look a like, sound a like, and the majority suit me.

[Briarhoppers]

For those that do not put as much emphasis on the BREEDER and put it completely on the dogs genetics....let me ask this, How many of you all can HONESTLY say, you have produced dogs better than their sire AND dam? And for those who have set out on a breeding program (and stuck w/ it) after two or three generations have you produced hounds that are getting better w/ each generation?

-Pete

[Briarhoppers]

Yes, I realize the question above is going to be a retorical question as no one is going to admit to breeding just average or less than average dogs. But, the point is that not everyone is a great breeder.
-Pete

[beaglerun]

I agree with alot you say on your last post but, If you buy a pup from Joe and you buy a pup from danny, then you call Mr Branko(the well) and ask him what he thinks and tell him how they run, what's the frist thing you think he's gona ask you? I bet it is, whats the pedigree of the two pups.

I had this very same thing happen to me with the very same people mentioned above and their reponse was the total opposite. The very first thing they explained to me was that the pup I was looking at buying was not a "Branko dog," and that they could not tell me anything about what to expect from the breeding. For a second I was offended, but I continued listening and the rest of their statement made sense.

Their view is that, even though they know all of the dogs in this pups pedigree, this breeding was not a "Branko decision." They pointed out a lot of strengths and weaknessess (from memory - not paper) of the dogs in this pups pedigree for me. However, they ended the conversation with a powerful closing arguement; "We can't say that we would or would not have made this breeding. Deciding what dogs to breed is a long and thoughtful process. We can only stand behind the breedings we make here at Branko Kennel. We are tired of people breeding dogs they got from us or dogs with Branko in the pedigree and trying to sell them as Branko dogs. It's only a branko dog if it was bred here at our kennel."

That conversation opened my eyes to the fact that pedigrees don't produce good dogs; People do. The decisions I may make based on my experience and studying pedigrees, may not be the same decision that Branko himself would make. Bigdog helped during this same time when he explained that things should match up on paper, but that doesn't mean they will match up in reality. I am glad I didn't buy that pup. I heard tale that cross and a similar cross had been tried before, and neither produced anything worth talking about, but; it sure looked good on paper!

My statement above is true experience, and I am in now way bashing Branko, Freda, Branko dogs, or dogs with Branko blood. I am merely stating my experience as it relates to the quote above. I do not wish to offend any one, nor do I want to open a bash Branko campaign. My name is BeagleRun, and I approve this message.

BeagleRun

[Briarhoppers]

Very good post Beaglerun - I agree w/ you.

I bought a dog once that was bred up very nice....had some very, very big name hounds up close and this dog "on paper" should have been outstanding. I'm not naming names just b/c that is not the point of this thread. However, this dog is probably the single worst beagle I have ever owned - a complete dud in the field.

Looking at the papers alone, there was no way to have predicted that cross would have produced a flop, but it sure did. Just imagine if I had taken that dog that was bred up so nice and instead of culling her, I bred her (for her pedigree) and then a large part of that litter turned out to be flops.

Papers / pedigree will only give you an idea of what you might expect, time in the field evaluating performance is where a dog is truely measured.

-Pete

[Tim H]

Pete, in reference to your question above, you asked it in such a way that it was not realistic.

put it completely on the dogs genetics.

There is a lot more that goes into breeding then just the genetics but if you ignore the genetics then you don't have a breeding plan, you have a breeding accident.

I plan my breedings based on genetics and seeing the dogs in the pedigree run. I have never bred based on who bred the dogs I was looking at. I can say that over 3 generations I've seen the dogs be better than their parents each time. Yes I put the emphasis on the dogs and not the breeder, I've never seen the breeder run a rabbit.

You can't take some pieces of a puzzle and say they are more important than the other pieces, you still won't have the full picture. However, you can still put the puzzle together even if your tutor leaves the room. It may take longer and you may have to think harder but as long as all the puzzle pieces are there you can do it.

[TC]

For those that do not put as much emphasis on the BREEDER and put it completely on the dogs genetics....let me ask this, How many of you all can HONESTLY say, you have produced dogs better than their sire AND dam? And for those who have set out on a breeding program (and stuck w/ it) after two or three generations have you produced hounds that are getting better w/ each generation?
-Pete

YES WE Have!!
Have they ALL been better?
NO.
But more than 60% have.
YOU Must have a Program With a goal in Mind and STICK to It....

[Pine Mt Beagles]

BRIAR HOPPER
THAT IS A GOOD POINT, A LOT OF BREEDERS GET SIDE TRACKED ,I HAVE BEEN BREEDING THE SAME COMBINATION OF HOUNDS FOR ABOUT 13 YRS THEY ARE BETTER TODAY THAN THEY WERE,WHEN I STARTED OR AT LEAST SOME OF US THINK SO.AND IF SOME THING DON'T HAPPEN WHEN I TURN THEM OVER TO TRI-STATE BEAGLES OLE EDDIS-O HE CAN HAVE THE SAME DOG'S FOR 13- MORE YRS,WITHOUT BREEDING OUT OF OUR KENNEL,I HAVE NEVER BRED TITLES OR FLAVOR OF THE MONTH I DON'T THINK IT CAN BE DONE AND STAY CONSISTANT. I DON'T CALL MYSELF A BREDER AS I THINK IT TAKES A LIFE TIME TO BECOME ONE. GOOD LUCK AND,,,,,,,,,
KEEP'EM RUNNING
PINE MT BEAGLES

[back40]

You can use pedigrees to make vague assumptions and generalizations about a dog or a litter of pups, but that’s about it. Seeing a litter pedigree that is loaded with LP Champions may give you an indication as to what style of hounds those pups may turn out to be, but it won’t give you any accurate indication as to the specific traits the pups inherited. A litter whose Sire was a hard hunter and whose Dam had a great nose may turn out to have neither hunt or nose. A litter of pups whose pedigree is loaded with Weir Creek and Boggy Holler hounds and has Weir Creek Buzz in it 26 times may end up not having much hunt. A litter of pups whose pedigree is loaded with PD SHORT bred hounds may end up not having much nose. I truly believe that most people would evaluate a hound much more honestly if they didn’t know anything about it’s pedigree beforehand.

[Pike Ridge Beagles]

You can use pedigrees to make vague assumptions and generalizations about a dog or a litter of pups, but that’s about it. Seeing a litter pedigree that is loaded with LP Champions may give you an indication as to what style of hounds those pups may turn out to be, but it won’t give you any accurate indication as to the specific traits the pups inherited. A litter whose Sire was a hard hunter and whose Dam had a great nose may turn out to have neither hunt or nose. A litter of pups whose pedigree is loaded with Weir Creek and Boggy Holler hounds and has Weir Creek Buzz in it 26 times may end up not having much hunt. A litter of pups whose pedigree is loaded with PD SHORT bred hounds may end up not having much nose. I truly believe that most people would evaluate a hound much more honestly if they didn’t know anything about it’s pedigree beforehand.

bingo .........and watched them run over and over and breed the best to the best.