Field Trial Ponderings

[mybeagles]

Just because you offer you male for public stud does not mean you must breed to every female. You can require the gyp owner show that the female is worth breeding. Not many do that, but I wouldn't breed a male of mine to a brood bitch or gyp with real bad faults.

Many will just take the stud fee and run but that creates some of the situations right there.

Imagine what would happen if every FC owner in the country refused to breed to brood bitches and gyps that couldn't circle a rabbit what that would do to better the breed. Clean up the flooded market of pups where guys have 4 dogs for sale listed as "Kennel reduction" two litters on the ground, and expecting 2 litters.

[BCBeagles]

Very true Dave....it weeds out the tirekickers and just is offensive to others....so you usually deal with a legitimate beagler looking for some quality pups.

Believe me, and you know this Dave, you can breed top end females to top end studs and still get plenty of culls......it happens with us....I know that for sure...they just don't all make the grade...in honesty, very few do.....

[BCBeagles]

Another way to view this in terms of field trials....how many top FC females are top reproducers of dogs as good as they are or better??

Very, very few.....and those types are usually always taken to a top stud hound....

[Hare Chaser]

Top producing females are not plentiful by any means. There are also very, very few top producing stud dogs as well. What really needs the be considered in the big picture is the percentages of top dogs produced by either the male or the female off of several different crosses.

Certainly one modern day female that comes to mind is FC Green Bay Blue Bay. She's well known because of the publicity she's received. I know of at least (4) different studs she was bred to and she produced a number of very, very good hounds from every litter based on what I hear and on one I own where the same cross was made twice.

Several of her pups made FC winning and placing in both LPOH and MWGD trials. Granted the studs she was bred to were good reproducers as well. There's no clear cut way to know with certainty who contributed the most to the get. Yet producing high quality hounds from multiple males leads me to believe she fits the deemed title of a top producing female. Mine will never see a field trial but he does a very good job as a gun dog.

[hard on a check]

What really needs to be considered in the big picture is the percentages of top dogs produced by either the male or the female off of several different crosses.

Now we're cookin with peanut oil.

[mybeagles]

Unfortunately lots of studs get hyped up and promoted that don't produce much and far too often a persons best gyp is complete junk as many of you stated. I guess it's easy to take the high road if you own one of the best. Easy to tell others what they should do when it's likely not even an option for them. Maybe, just maybe we take this beagle breeding and field trialing way to serious. After I'm dead and gone will any of it really matter?

[main event`s beagles]

do you mean to tell me that the stud isn't what their AD says they are. you know the ones he is putting hunt and size and all the other traits of the sire into his pups and starting at an early age. I believe a good dog doesn't need to be advertised. also the stud needs no introduction lmao

[S.R.Patch]

Unfortunately lots of studs get hyped up and promoted that don't produce much and far too often a persons best gyp is complete junk as many of you stated. I guess it's easy to take the high road if you own one of the best. Easy to tell others what they should do when it's likely not even an option for them. Maybe, just maybe we take this beagle breeding and field trialing way to serious. After I'm dead and gone will any of it really matter?

To some, I think it really matters. When Willet ask Ray to help Mike with the hounds, I think even on his death's bed, he really felt his life's work was worth it and it mattered.
I think with the advancement of science and proven methods of reproductive traits, we can all have some faith that if we arm ourselves with knowledge and the responsibility we take on, improvements can be made.
I think we owe it to those who got in their ships and sailed off past the horizon. It had to be scary to sail to the world's edge not knowing just where the drop off was...

[warddog]

I agree mybeagles. In the grand scheme of my life these beagles are pretty close to bottom of the priority for me which makes them a hobby not a way of life. When I was a kid and our family depended on game to augment the dinner table they higher up on the priority list BUT never did I ever notice my dad or grandfathers making them one of their top priorities even though they ALL had a rabbit dog or two. Sure they wanted ones that could put meat on the table but I never, ever heard them discuss how ole so and so shucked and jived to do it. A rabbit jumped by the dog or the hunter and a rabbit on the table gave that dog another hot meal at their house. I also have NEVER in my years of following hounds with ANY of them saw them run behind one to judge it's speed, form and or style. I believe they could pretty much tell by the dog's mouth, just as they did with their coon hounds at night, what was going on and if it was talking them until freezing to death to get their job done. In fact when I moved too much after a jump was made, I got my back side scolded for possibly disrupting the rabbits natural instinct to circle to the point of the jump where of course the harvesters were waiting to end the track, just as they would at the tree on the end of a coon chase. No game seen or harvested NOT a dog worth feeding. So many speeds, styles and forms I often wonder what is considered bettering the bred when one's treasure is another's trash.

[BMBeagles]

Well said ! A good solid rabbit dog is just that ! A good solid rabbit dog Not a mythical beast that can only be seen at a trial.

[Shady Grove Beagles]

Warddog and BM Beagles
Good posts!
I've always thought that well used term "bettering the breed" that is bandied about so frequently sounds extremely grandiose. I mean,what do we think we are accomplishing?
Better rabbit dogs here in 2017 than fifty years ago? There are many old time rabbit hunters [ some even get on here ] that will swear that the dogs they were running back then were better than today's hounds.I was actively rabbit hunting fifty years ago behind a pack of grade beagles owned by my dad and a couple other guys that regularly filled our game bags with cotton tail and hare.
If so many of today's beaglers honestly think that we are "bettering the breed" than tell me why is there always so much emphasis on touting the hounds and kennels from WAY BACK in beagling history?
Look at all the folks hanging on to the history of Willet Randall and the Patch hounds.People still asking us to believe that hounds like Warfield Red,Dingus McCrae,East Coast Trimmer,etc.,etc., hounds from fifty plus years ago are impacting today's field champions.If we are actually"bettering the breed" why are we still promoting the idea that those hounds were more outstanding than today's hounds and if in fact they were than what does that say about us "bettering the breed"?
My guess would be that those mentioned hounds were great in their day and would probably be considered top rabbit dogs by today's rabbit hunters.Maybe not by the standards of today's field trialers as our current culture demands instant gratification and we want everything in our lives to be fast and instant results.
"Bettering the breed"? I wouldn't go that far.For me,if I can better the four or five beagles I keep in my little back yard kennel from the four or five I had before them than I think I've done what I was trying to do.
As always,JMHO.

[mybeagles]

beaglers spend infinately more money on running pens, electronics, kennels, nutrition, than they ever did 60 years ago.

A great dog pops up now and then. As a judge I see plenty of junk at every trial. Many of the local hunters buy pups from Field Champions with lots of speed resulting in high maintenance dogs that need solo time and conditioning to prevent them from being high strung wild pieces of crap.

As a whole there is more dishonesty and deception which isn't good for bettering the breed. I wasn't around 60 years ago but just looking back over the last 25 years I've had some good ones, had some that were ok, had to cull lots of junk. As hard as I try to better my 3-4 dog Kennel I'm certain I've done nothing to better the breed.

I have met some lifelong friends in beagling. Only regrets I've had with beagling is letting it become a higher priority than it should have. No matter how big of improvements any of you claim to have made, make no mistake about the fact it can all be eliminated with one bad cross.

[Hare Chaser]

I remember 35 years ago coon and rabbit hunting with several guys like me. Full of P and V proving that we were the up and comers in the sport of hunting with hounds. We often talked about the old timers and how they lived in the past and how everything was better way back when. We called them "Old Giesers" and laughed it off. I vowed I'd never become one of those.

I'm getting older but my goal is not to allow what once was, become shaded enough to effect my vision of improving what I have when the opportunity arises. The electronics for me simply make my hunts more enjoyable. Funny how everyone I know seems to drive around in a relatively up to date automobile. Not often I hear people pining to go back to the 40's and 50's for a new one of that era's autos on an everyday basis. Fact is most of us have money enough to get what we want or need. Just a matter of what we are willing to part with it for.

There were plenty of good dogs 35 years ago and more than enough junk. That hasn't changed much at all in my book. I have never put my family's financial vitality at risk because of my dogs. I've discovered over the years that when God and family come first everything else will fall into proper perspective. Dogs will always be just dogs but there are very good ones and very poor ones. I've had hounds for 40 years consecutively and I'm always looking forward to the possibility of having the best one I've ever owned. I can't go back and raise any from the dead but the facts are I don't need to. There are some really, really good ones out there if we are willing to do our home work.

[warddog]

I agree shady and mybeagles. I was around 60 years ago following rabbit hounds and although my dad and grandparents as well as uncles have passed on there are still some of us from those good ole days still hunting behind beagles. ALL of us from the old family use one dog from way back then as our measuring stick when we are judging beagles TODAY! That was a $35.00 supposedly registered (no papers were ever produced), blind in one eye, solid white male called whitey. Each and every time out he hunted, jumped, circled rabbits and even retrieved them for my dad regardless of what, how many other dogs and hunters were with him. Usually limits were taken by several, if they could shoot and those of us less of lessor shooting ability longed to do so to join that stature of one that can and has gotten the limit. That thought process for us is long past gone these days but the dog measuring stick is still the same.

[S.R.Patch]

It seems there are many definitions of "bettering the Breed".
Some think it is to create a kind of "Super" hound, faultless and never failing. We all know they are only animals.
I've always went with what Randall said when ask what improvements he'd accomplished, " I can't say as a whole they're a lot better, but I can say there are many less poor ones". What he was saying was, the average produced had been raised to an overall standard. That is the way you build any breed, a rising tide lifts all ships, if you will. The creation of a family of hounds that reproduce in kind.
The nostalgia of looking back on beagle history at those who dedicated their time and efforts towards hound improvement is always a envy in today's fast pace world. To have total independence, living in the wilds where breeding and testing hound flesh limits was unabated by family and commitments. Maybe a bit selfish, but a love none the less and best described as a "itch", that some can never get at or seem to reach...lol
Imho, one can't help but to reflect back on those early days where men brought their best together to be tested in competition. Hounds weren't made a trials, they were judged at home to first be worthy of trialing. The test were consecutive hours a day, for days on end. To me, there is little doubt the standard for consideration has been lowered considerably.
Many like to refer back to individual hounds as game changers, but a shower doesn't make a wet Spring. it is a foundation built by those additions, a part of a solid base. If you inadvertently mix in porous or cracks, your building has greater potential to crumble.
As for trials, the worth of the title is no doubt equal to the testing requirement, hounds are no better than whats required. jmho