Puppies, Breeding and MONEY????
Moderators: Pike Ridge Beagles, Aaron Bartlett
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Buckeye Bob
- Posts: 489
- Joined: Sun Sep 07, 2003 10:01 pm
- Location: Ohio
Thats the way to cull Alabama John,I just gave away a 2 year old well bred female that just didn't cut it for me and the guy is telling everyone in town what a great hound she is.I have sold hounds that were too slow,too short,too much mouth,too little mouth,not enough hunt for me for hundreds of dollars.I just bought a nice young male from a friend who doesn't like males or anything over 13 inches plus he had too many hounds to run...off topic but point is a cull to me or you could be a good dog to someone else.On the topic at hand on buying a pup....I must have had the worst luck the last 2 years on pups.I bought 3 pups out of big name proven producers over a 2 year span,paid anywhere from 100 to $250 and then spent hours and hours and hours trying to finish them and ended up without one hound that could jump and circle its own rabbit at 2 years old.Just a case of bad luck,all these pups had siblings that were above average hounds.My plan now is to take the time to do some "backyard breeding" of the best dogs that I own and go from there.
It is enjoyable to me to here everyones opinions, and everyone has a valuable opinion. When we have civlie discourse like this I for one get a chance to think about a lot of things in what I do.
Mason beagles, I really thought a lot about what you said. I went all the way to illinois from Ohio to pick up a pup from a guy who regularly puts adds in magazines. I was appalled at the conditions of the kennel. He did live up to his word and I was able to run anny hound I wanted to look at, and I decided one little red female was worth taking home. Honestly I felt somewhat like I was rescueing her. She turned out to be a very nice hound, after I wormed her and got her to good health. I payed a little too much and doubled the price in getting her healthy.
Kennel condition, the care of the dam, the care of the pup, is it wormed, has it had its shots(for real) and a guarantee are very important points, now that would add great value to a pup, and I would be just as willing to take that into consideration when purchasing a pup. Very good point.
Mason beagles, I really thought a lot about what you said. I went all the way to illinois from Ohio to pick up a pup from a guy who regularly puts adds in magazines. I was appalled at the conditions of the kennel. He did live up to his word and I was able to run anny hound I wanted to look at, and I decided one little red female was worth taking home. Honestly I felt somewhat like I was rescueing her. She turned out to be a very nice hound, after I wormed her and got her to good health. I payed a little too much and doubled the price in getting her healthy.
Kennel condition, the care of the dam, the care of the pup, is it wormed, has it had its shots(for real) and a guarantee are very important points, now that would add great value to a pup, and I would be just as willing to take that into consideration when purchasing a pup. Very good point.
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tom summers
- Posts: 505
- Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2005 6:59 pm
- Location: michigan
Here is a site I found on breeding. It is for bull dogs but all the information trancends to all breeds thought it might be useful to some of you.
http://bullmarketfrogs.com/articles/can ... ograms.htm
Tom
I posted similar thread to this some time back askng why beagle puppies bring so much less than other breeds alot of the same discussion is same as past.
http://bullmarketfrogs.com/articles/can ... ograms.htm
Tom
I posted similar thread to this some time back askng why beagle puppies bring so much less than other breeds alot of the same discussion is same as past.
This has always been a VERY important part of our kennel programKennel condition, the care of the dam, the care of the pup, is it wormed, has it had its shots(for real) and a guarantee are very important points, now that would add great value to a pup, and I would be just as willing to take that into consideration when purchasing a pup. Very good point.
you WILL NOT purchase a pup or Dog from us that Does not have a compleate history medical records health garantee ect.
WE WILL not even Consider purchasing a dog or Do a breeding until We have seen the Dog and the KENNEL and met with the breeder personally,.
this also gives us a chance to look at the hounds parents siblings kennel conditions ect..
We will not Sell a pup until we are assured of Where it is going and if it is going to be a good match for the pup...
We do get good money for our pups but do we make anything??
more than likely Not.
We only do a couple breedings every 2 years or so we have shipped pups all over the states and so far so good..
now as far as the pedigrees Go We look at the pedigrees on our Dogs very Carefully and contact the previous owners and any references they may have or that we have heard of looking For any type of medical issues along with ability.. kinda hard to judge ability in Show hounds But most often the breeders on these lines have kept very accurate and extensive records this gives us a lot to look at We have not had that kind of luck on the field side of our lines But then again after 5 generations we dont outcross very often any more we breed our best to our best...
We also will not Sell a field or pet hound for under $250.00 I will give them away to a good pet home or young person just starting out ect before I will sell for anything less....we also Very rareley let a pup go under 10 weeks old this gives us more time to socialize and evaluate all our hounds we usually only sell a couple from every litter we keep the rest get them started and evaluate further before letting them go.
most dont leave here before they are 6 mo. and when they do it is as a lightly started or running dog.
From Field to Show and Show to Field the way it should be
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Alabama John
- Posts: 2116
- Joined: Sat Jul 27, 2002 5:56 pm
- Location: Pinson, Alabama
Buckeye Bob
You will be better off to stay close to home.
I practically give mine away if they don't fit the pack. There are folks that sure do like my culls and want more too. Talk about losing money on pups, what if you wait until they are running to cull? Then you really lose.
You can sell a 6 week old pup quicker and for a better price than one 6 months old. Hunters know you have tried it out and they are not getting the barn burner as they might when they were 6 weeks old and pet folks want a little cute one.
I sell pups for $100.00 each and at 6 weeks old they go to hunters or as pets. Have 4 males and three females now about two weeks old.
Will have first shots and wormed several times. Grade or AKC, folks never ask and don't care if registered or not.
I usually have a litter every year or two.
You will be better off to stay close to home.
I practically give mine away if they don't fit the pack. There are folks that sure do like my culls and want more too. Talk about losing money on pups, what if you wait until they are running to cull? Then you really lose.
You can sell a 6 week old pup quicker and for a better price than one 6 months old. Hunters know you have tried it out and they are not getting the barn burner as they might when they were 6 weeks old and pet folks want a little cute one.
I sell pups for $100.00 each and at 6 weeks old they go to hunters or as pets. Have 4 males and three females now about two weeks old.
Will have first shots and wormed several times. Grade or AKC, folks never ask and don't care if registered or not.
I usually have a litter every year or two.
Pedigrees are not blueprints, if they were all we would have to do is put together the perfect pedigree and every pup would be a carbon copy of our idea of the perfect dog. Many people believe and strive towards this end. I used to myself. I'm here to tell you, it don't work that way. Breeding dogs is far more complicated than that.
Knowing your dogs background can help you predict what the pups may be like. That much is certainly true. A pedigree is seen as a shortcut to get this knowledge. If you know very well the dogs listed in the pedigree it can be very useful. If you don't know those dogs personaly, the pedigree may just be a shortcut to failure.
Knowing your dogs background can help you predict what the pups may be like. That much is certainly true. A pedigree is seen as a shortcut to get this knowledge. If you know very well the dogs listed in the pedigree it can be very useful. If you don't know those dogs personaly, the pedigree may just be a shortcut to failure.
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Alabama John
- Posts: 2116
- Joined: Sat Jul 27, 2002 5:56 pm
- Location: Pinson, Alabama
The ARHA Little Pack trials gave hunters a trial format for their grade dogs. I think UKC did the same. Of course these same dogs couldn't run in AKC trials.
By the popularity of the Little pack trials it was and is a success.
Lots of AKC registered dogs now competing in ARHA and UKC as well.
I have said before, if studying the papers and breeding from them worked as well as some think and really gave you a superior dog, there would be no grade dogs competing in ARHA as the AKC dogs would be whooping their butts so bad.
AKC Beagles have been around a long time, (well over 100 years) surely all that studying would have produced all perfect dogs by now if it ever is going to.
Check out the ARHA, UKC trial results. It seems to be the other way around.
How Come?????
By the popularity of the Little pack trials it was and is a success.
Lots of AKC registered dogs now competing in ARHA and UKC as well.
I have said before, if studying the papers and breeding from them worked as well as some think and really gave you a superior dog, there would be no grade dogs competing in ARHA as the AKC dogs would be whooping their butts so bad.
AKC Beagles have been around a long time, (well over 100 years) surely all that studying would have produced all perfect dogs by now if it ever is going to.
Check out the ARHA, UKC trial results. It seems to be the other way around.
How Come?????
Tom Dornin once said, a pedigree was more useful as a perdictor of what had gone wrong in a mating, more so than the guarantee of what might go right... 
The main thing is that the ancestors not be left to memory that fails, and that the listing of hounds on paper gives everyone the individuals involved, that they may compare and compile information of success and failures of tried matings.(mistakes have a way of repeating themselves)
One may work well within the limits of ones own kennel but, when the need comes to go outside for slightly or new blood, how would you know if the performer your considering is anything like it's ancestors or a one time freak of nature.
A pedigree is useful even if those hounds involved are mixed and indiscreetly use. A little study will at least give the chance of a "red flag" being thrown and save you the time of learn from the experience ( Experience is the most througho of teachers, but painfully slow)...
ps...if ARHA & UKC are all about just plain ole good hounds, why have they developed their own registering and pedigree programs? just keep breeding the good to the good, or do they see the need to keep all this on "PAPER"...
The main thing is that the ancestors not be left to memory that fails, and that the listing of hounds on paper gives everyone the individuals involved, that they may compare and compile information of success and failures of tried matings.(mistakes have a way of repeating themselves)
One may work well within the limits of ones own kennel but, when the need comes to go outside for slightly or new blood, how would you know if the performer your considering is anything like it's ancestors or a one time freak of nature.
A pedigree is useful even if those hounds involved are mixed and indiscreetly use. A little study will at least give the chance of a "red flag" being thrown and save you the time of learn from the experience ( Experience is the most througho of teachers, but painfully slow)...
ps...if ARHA & UKC are all about just plain ole good hounds, why have they developed their own registering and pedigree programs? just keep breeding the good to the good, or do they see the need to keep all this on "PAPER"...
well i thought i would put some numbers down for some of you to see first we will go the route of buying a pup at 6 weeks old and feeding it up to 8 months old to see what you get. starting off
shots weeks 8,12, 16= $6.75 at $2.25 a shot
worming 8, 10, 12, 16, 24.32 weeks=$6
feed$8 a month feeding a really good food=$64
time at minium wage $5.15hr 30mins a day to feed and playwith=50.4hrs=$259.56
starting pup i have a training methoud that takes 7 to 10 weeks depending on the pup and between 28.5hrs to 43.5hrs at $5.15hr=$144.77 to $224
so if you bought that really good pup for $200 bucks and it did work out using my training method at 8months old you would have a hound ready to join your pack at a price of$681.08 to $760.31 now you wonder why people will pay those prices for broke hounds thats alot of time and work right there in getting that 8month old pup up and going.
now the next route rasing your own litter to sale from your 2 good dogs presuming you raise one good litter a year.
feeding these 2 fine hounds $10 a month=$120 for the year
worming and hearth worm prevention $10 a month=$120 a year
misc vet supplies asuming your like me and do most your own vet work $100
30mins a day to feed and clean and play with your dogs a day at minimum wage $5.15hr 110hrs=$566.50
running those fine hounds no charge that the payoff for having such great hounds lol.
now puppy time the pups are here asuming there are 5 and they all make it.
worm the pups at 2,3,4,6weeks $6
shots at 6weeks x5=$13.50 at $2.25each
feeding from4weeks to 6weeks=$15 for good puppy food
registration pappers $20 + what $2 a pup would be $30
grand total of=$971
so at $200 a pup=$1,000 you made a wapin $29 dang where getting rich lol
at $250 a pup=$1.250 i may just retire and raise beagles lol
but if your like me well your going to keep 2 of those pups so $971 divde by 5=$194.20 in the 2 pups i raised dang i could have bought them for that lol so i keep my 2 and start and have them through my training at 8 months and what do you know ive got $875.28 to $954.21 in my own 2 pups that ive raised from my own dogs.
we all love what we do but you can see theres no money in beagles i don't try to break anyone up but i dont' care to ask a good price for my pups i do my homework when i breed and i exspect results just thought id share this with you guys.
shots weeks 8,12, 16= $6.75 at $2.25 a shot
worming 8, 10, 12, 16, 24.32 weeks=$6
feed$8 a month feeding a really good food=$64
time at minium wage $5.15hr 30mins a day to feed and playwith=50.4hrs=$259.56
starting pup i have a training methoud that takes 7 to 10 weeks depending on the pup and between 28.5hrs to 43.5hrs at $5.15hr=$144.77 to $224
so if you bought that really good pup for $200 bucks and it did work out using my training method at 8months old you would have a hound ready to join your pack at a price of$681.08 to $760.31 now you wonder why people will pay those prices for broke hounds thats alot of time and work right there in getting that 8month old pup up and going.
now the next route rasing your own litter to sale from your 2 good dogs presuming you raise one good litter a year.
feeding these 2 fine hounds $10 a month=$120 for the year
worming and hearth worm prevention $10 a month=$120 a year
misc vet supplies asuming your like me and do most your own vet work $100
30mins a day to feed and clean and play with your dogs a day at minimum wage $5.15hr 110hrs=$566.50
running those fine hounds no charge that the payoff for having such great hounds lol.
now puppy time the pups are here asuming there are 5 and they all make it.
worm the pups at 2,3,4,6weeks $6
shots at 6weeks x5=$13.50 at $2.25each
feeding from4weeks to 6weeks=$15 for good puppy food
registration pappers $20 + what $2 a pup would be $30
grand total of=$971
so at $200 a pup=$1,000 you made a wapin $29 dang where getting rich lol
at $250 a pup=$1.250 i may just retire and raise beagles lol
but if your like me well your going to keep 2 of those pups so $971 divde by 5=$194.20 in the 2 pups i raised dang i could have bought them for that lol so i keep my 2 and start and have them through my training at 8 months and what do you know ive got $875.28 to $954.21 in my own 2 pups that ive raised from my own dogs.
we all love what we do but you can see theres no money in beagles i don't try to break anyone up but i dont' care to ask a good price for my pups i do my homework when i breed and i exspect results just thought id share this with you guys.
J&M Beagles, Breeding for a true gundog and hunting partner
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MasonsBeagles
- Posts: 2214
- Joined: Fri Jun 20, 2003 2:39 pm
- Location: Louisville Kentucky
- Contact:
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Alabama John wrote:
"Check out the ARHA, UKC trial results. It seems to be the other way around. How Come?????"
John 10 yrs ago Id agree with you on that, but from the results I see on NKC/ARHA trials the AKC dogs are winning alot more big hunts than just NKC registered. Its a numbers thing I would assume. More and more are running AKC hounds. A good dog is a good dog registered or not.
As far as the registration of other registeries. The dogs going in today are considered foundation stock. Id assume and heard rumors that at one time ARHA was going to eventually close the books. Dont know if it is true or not.
"Check out the ARHA, UKC trial results. It seems to be the other way around. How Come?????"
John 10 yrs ago Id agree with you on that, but from the results I see on NKC/ARHA trials the AKC dogs are winning alot more big hunts than just NKC registered. Its a numbers thing I would assume. More and more are running AKC hounds. A good dog is a good dog registered or not.
As far as the registration of other registeries. The dogs going in today are considered foundation stock. Id assume and heard rumors that at one time ARHA was going to eventually close the books. Dont know if it is true or not.
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Pine MT Beagle Runner
- Posts: 79
- Joined: Fri Feb 16, 2007 3:33 pm
- Location: Manchester, KY (Clay County)
There were no world champions, field champions, rabbit champions, etc. until Field trialing started. Even the first CHAMPIONS came from no name hounds. My little Pine MT gyp just had a litter of 3 males and 4 females. I have a guy interested in a male and a female, my children have picked a male and a female to keep, a male and a female will be birthday presents for my nephews who are age 6 who want a beagle so bad they can taste it. This leaves me with one last female to keep, sell,or to give away.
Eve is not a FC, RCH, or WC. She cannot be bought. I am so pleased with her no amount of money will ever cause her to leave my kennel. She will die while in my posession. I crossed her with a litter mate to her grandsire's sire because I wanted as good or better hunt. This was done for myself, not to make a little pocket change or to lessen the breed of beagles. These dogs are my property, and should I sell one for one dollar or ten billion dollars; what should it be to you.
I'll run my little no name free dog, yes I said free dog, against any big name dog any time after she comes off her pups. If these big name dog owners do not like how she runs, they have that right. She runs to catch the rabbit, she is very tight mouthed(the way I like a dog). She caught two wild rabbits and one tame rabbit this past hunting season. How many hounds have you heard of to do that in their first season of hunting? She caught the tame rabbit and one wild cottontail at 9 months old and the other wild rabbit at 11 months old. Personally, I think that people would love to have a dog like my Eve. To each their own. There may even be some people out there who like walkie talkie dogs.
The worth of the dog is what the owner deems. Everyone is not into breeding to make a fortune. Breed for what you like, raise what you like, and sell them for what you think they are worth. Cut someone a break every once and a while maybe they can only afford about $50.00. But most of all be honest and trustworthy. Don't sell some garbage running, thash heep of a dog and represent it as the best rabbit dog you have ever seen.
Now days, there are even more people than before who cannot afford to pay high dollar for a dog and still feed there families. These same people may take a no name dog from a breeding pair of no name dogs and turn it into a RCH, FC, or WC. My brother comes to mind. He has been disabled following an accident for almost 2 1/2 years now, the system is trying to starve him out. He could probably scrape together about fifty buck in 2 or three months for a dog but there is no way he could dish out $250.00+ for a dog.
That is why IMO that some people sell dogs cheaper than others. Sorry about my attitude, your question affects me personally.
Chris Chandler
Eve is not a FC, RCH, or WC. She cannot be bought. I am so pleased with her no amount of money will ever cause her to leave my kennel. She will die while in my posession. I crossed her with a litter mate to her grandsire's sire because I wanted as good or better hunt. This was done for myself, not to make a little pocket change or to lessen the breed of beagles. These dogs are my property, and should I sell one for one dollar or ten billion dollars; what should it be to you.
I'll run my little no name free dog, yes I said free dog, against any big name dog any time after she comes off her pups. If these big name dog owners do not like how she runs, they have that right. She runs to catch the rabbit, she is very tight mouthed(the way I like a dog). She caught two wild rabbits and one tame rabbit this past hunting season. How many hounds have you heard of to do that in their first season of hunting? She caught the tame rabbit and one wild cottontail at 9 months old and the other wild rabbit at 11 months old. Personally, I think that people would love to have a dog like my Eve. To each their own. There may even be some people out there who like walkie talkie dogs.
The worth of the dog is what the owner deems. Everyone is not into breeding to make a fortune. Breed for what you like, raise what you like, and sell them for what you think they are worth. Cut someone a break every once and a while maybe they can only afford about $50.00. But most of all be honest and trustworthy. Don't sell some garbage running, thash heep of a dog and represent it as the best rabbit dog you have ever seen.
Now days, there are even more people than before who cannot afford to pay high dollar for a dog and still feed there families. These same people may take a no name dog from a breeding pair of no name dogs and turn it into a RCH, FC, or WC. My brother comes to mind. He has been disabled following an accident for almost 2 1/2 years now, the system is trying to starve him out. He could probably scrape together about fifty buck in 2 or three months for a dog but there is no way he could dish out $250.00+ for a dog.
That is why IMO that some people sell dogs cheaper than others. Sorry about my attitude, your question affects me personally.
Chris Chandler
Pine MT Beagles bred by Rufus Stewart, FEAR NO BUNNY
jlboomer, I'd love to know where you can get shots at $2.25 per shot. I have been paying $6.89 per shot at my local TSC store for the 8-way. Rasining a litter of puppies to 8 weeks of age can nickle and dime you to death if you keep track, eh? Especially when your bitch tends to have litters of ten, lol.
To those who would scoff at the minimum wage thing, your time is worth something - even if it is a hobby. Somebody is going to benefit from your labor in the end.
To those who would scoff at the minimum wage thing, your time is worth something - even if it is a hobby. Somebody is going to benefit from your labor in the end.
bev i order my shots from jeffers in bulk of 25 or more me and some buddys will split when needed but i usally have between 6 to 8 big hounds and raise a litter of pups a year so i keep them in the fridge there good dated. yea it can get costly rasing them up just figured i do a run down to truely show people even if you took out the pay for your time you still got alot tied up in a pup.
J&M Beagles, Breeding for a true gundog and hunting partner