What still constitutes a bloodline

[NorWester1]

Couple thoughts to consider.......

The average life expectancy for a rabbit is less than a year. I wonder why.

When a male is in breeding mode he will travel several miles. I wonder why.

Guys have a heck of a time getting snowshoes to reproduce in an enclosure. I wonder why.

Rabbits are towards the bottom of the food chain. I wonder why.

Rabbits are extremely proned to disease and dye out in cycles. I wonder why.

The more advanced the species of animal the less inbreeding there is. I wonder why.

Do rabbits seem to be getting more plentiful and more resiliant where you live. I wonder why.

Actually for snowshoe hares the life span expectancy is about 3 years....some longer believe it or not.

With the males it's a numbers game and a race to breed as many females as possible. They do not have the cognitive thought process to worry about whether they are breeding into their own family. Nature sorts out any problems inbreeding may create.....it's called natural selection. Mother Nature is a cruel hag when it comes to culling undesirable traits

Snowshoe hares are very sensitive to stress, they just don't do well in captivity. Thats why some folks have difficulty keeping them.

The more advanced the species of animal the less inbreeding there is. I wonder why

I'd like to see where you are getting your information on that from if you would please.

[Bev]

He's not getting it anywhere from Tennessee.

(lol, j/k)

[Laneline]

Laneline,

Do you agree with many of the line/inbreeders that claim you seldom get pups better than the parents? Or that you seldom get superstars?

Well, though the question sounds simple, there are a lot of variables involved. For some it is the goal to always get better dogs with each generation because you have not reached the goal of your “ideal” dog, otherwise it is considered that the breeding was a failure. Or if you did not often consistently produce a “superstar” it is considered a failure. But to others, they do not line breed until they reach a certain “quality”, then line breeding is used to preserve what they have and bring forth consistency in reproducing ability. I think the “bar” or standard is simply set higher for some than others. I don’t think that many of the people that claim they seldom get pups better then their parents mean that in a negative way. If a person is line breeding culls together I can see why a person would pray for better dogs than the parents and I would understand why there were seldom “superstars”. Realistically even though the dogs may not be “perfect”, but if you are breeding dogs that you would be more than thrilled to get “more of the same” of, and on a consistent basis, I don’t see this as a negative. As far as “superstar” producing, that beauty is in the eye of the beholder. If I were told that from this day forward, that my pups were never going to exceed Ozzie, but they would remain “as good” as Ozzie and every once in a while there would be a “superstar” born that would even be better than Ozzie, {Hey Bev, wouldn't that be nice?} I would be thanking my luck stars. I personally think through line breeding you take out the “unpredictableness” and you increase your odds as far as reproducing what you already have. That “what you already have” part is a huge factor. Since Ozzie seems to be a topic favourite, I will go with that. Take Hill’s Shake Rag Kennels. They reached a certain "quality” and line bred to maintain and reproduce what they already had and produced “superstars” along the way. It has been stated what Ozzie has accomplished but look at his littermates, half littermates, Sires and Grand Sires, Dams and Grand Dams and all the “related” siblings. They have not only became Champions, Grand Champions and more importantly produced the same, but did this in the field and show in many different formats within the {AKC, ARHA, UKC}, under different circumstances and under different judges and organizational rule book standards. Why does this mean something? Because as the good book says: “There is wisdom in a multitude of counsel”, my point being that when multiple gun hunters and field trialers observe a dog and/or a line and critique it, it helps set that “bar” or standard. It also helps to prevent from your dogs going down a slow hill. And for Shake Rag Kennel, their success is not coincidental, this is accomplished by breeding strategy. Which brings me to my next point, it wasn’t just these dogs elected into the Hall of Fame, the breeders of the line, Kenneth and Nick Hill were too. It’s not just “line breeding” that makes it successful, it is the quality of dogs used in the line breeding program and the standard that the breeder has. Breeder accountability and just how high the bar is set before you deem a dog worthy to be line bred has much to do with your success rate.

[RiverBottom]

I think Mybeagles is refering to something I wrote a few pages back. From MY experience (I can't speak for anyone else and I'm not quoting some book) I have never seen pups from a half brother/half sister cross and tighter that were better than either of the parents. I have seen several pups from outcrosses that were better than either parent.

I still line breed and inbreed, and always will. When I do, I am trying to keep what I have, not improve on it. The only trait I am trying to improve by inbreeding is the ability of those dogs to reproduce themselves for several generations into the future.

I have outcrossed more often than I have bred dogs that were related (please don't call me an inbreeder Mybeagles ). When I do, I am looking to improve on some trait or group of traits. I have been down the road of continous outcrossing years ago. Started out with an average dog, within three generations I had a "superstar" (in my eyes anyway). Went down hill fast from there. I tried hard to get another Superstar. Superstar's line died out shortly after she did.

When you outcross, you are changing things. Sometimes for the better, more often for the worse, but ALWAYS different than what you started out with. The only way around this is if the two unrelated individuals that are outcrossed are almost exactly alike (as in the snowshoe hares case).

Good post Lanline. The only issue I have with it is the reference to field trials. Not that I disagree, I don't. Breeding dogs is a numbers game. Field trials can greatly increase the number of dogs that are being evaluated for the same traits, increasing your odds to get more dogs with those traits.

The problem is with the traits selected for. If you are breeding cottontail dogs in Ohio, it would be very helpfull to go to a bunch of feild trials and see lots of different dogs run. I am trying to breed dogs that can run a hare in MN in January. No field trial ever held selects for the traits I select for. Seeing FC on a pedigree doesn't do anything for me.

I know, there are a few snow trials. That is a good thing, I hope the winners get lots of recognition. By all accounts Green Bay Shooter is a great dog and can only help the beagle breed. Still, turning 30 dogs loose inside a fence in the snow is a far cry from an average winter day of hunting for me.

[Tim H]

This was your first post on this thread.

I've said this before and ruffled a few feathers, but I'll say it again. If everyone reading this would take all their papers and burn them, the beagle breed would greatly improve.

10 pages later this is what you post.

I still line breed and inbreed, and always will.

I tried to figure out how these 2 line up and I finally get it. You must just have a better memory than I do.

I use the papers to keep it all straight.
I've found myself calling dogs in from the field that were in the kennel back home. Sometimes when I'm out running the dogs, I can't remember the name of the dog that I'm looking at, so I just holler "dogs come" and that way they all come so I'm sure to get the one I want. So I don't trust my memory with breeding.

[RiverBottom]

Your on to me Tim

My long term memory is great, I can remember every detail of hunts that happened 25 years ago.

My short term memory is getting worse all the time When I get the dogs in I double check to make sure there are no tracking collar magnets left over before I drive away I need to start making a list before I cut 'em loose. I always wondered how those guys that run 30 or more dogs at a time know when everyone is present and accounted for

I also like to video tape my dogs running in different conditions (see the post I made about video pedigrees if you can find it). Helps keep the memory sharp, and me & Rose just enjoy watching them.

[Pine Mt Beagles]

RIVER BOTTOM
THAT PIC.CRACKS ME UP ,HOW MANY WORD DOES ROSE TYPE PER MIN.,HAS TO BE MUCH BETTER THAN ME ,I HAVE RAN DOGS NORTH SOUTH EAST AND WEST AND IF YOU HAVE A RABBIT HOUND IT CAN RUN ANY WHERE YOU PUT IT,
KEP'EM RUNNING
PINE MT BEAGLES

[Jim Orman]

test

[Tim H]

I've been reading all of this and trying to stay open minded about everyones approach to this. So I thought, what if I bought into the approach of just breed "best to best". In looking back at the best dogs I ever had and just disregarding the bloodline and not thinking about the pedigree, how would that breeding have turned out.

I went way back in my history and thought, what 2 dogs would have been the best 2 dogs alive at the same time (otherwise I couldn't have bred them) and came up with the 2 best in my opinion. Well, it turns out that if I would have decided to breed "best to best" then I would have lost one of my best dogs and possibly both. You see, Jack and Chief were both pretty dominant dogs and I'm real sure that trying to get that breeding done would've caused a fight to the death possibly involving me in that fight, what with me instigating the whole thing.

Now there is evidence that breeding "best to best" won't always work.

[NorWester1]

RIVER BOTTOM
THAT PIC.CRACKS ME UP ,HOW MANY WORD DOES ROSE TYPE PER MIN.,HAS TO BE MUCH BETTER THAN ME ,I HAVE RAN DOGS NORTH SOUTH EAST AND WEST AND IF YOU HAVE A RABBIT HOUND IT CAN RUN ANY WHERE YOU PUT IT,
KEP'EM RUNNING
PINE MT BEAGLES

Really? What exactly is your definition of a rabbit hound?

Do you think that it is realistic to assume that because you have a dog that can hunt/run a cottontail rabbit well in Kentucky that it would do just a good a job up this way in winter on snowshoe hare? (off topic but I felt inclined to ask anyway, sorry)

[Mapel Valley Kennels LLC.]

RIVER BOTTOM
THAT PIC.CRACKS ME UP ,HOW MANY WORD DOES ROSE TYPE PER MIN.,HAS TO BE MUCH BETTER THAN ME ,I HAVE RAN DOGS NORTH SOUTH EAST AND WEST AND IF YOU HAVE A RABBIT HOUND IT CAN RUN ANY WHERE YOU PUT IT,
KEP'EM RUNNING
PINE MT BEAGLES

Really? What exactly is your definition of a rabbit hound?

Do you think that it is realistic to assume that because you have a dog that can hunt/run a cottontail rabbit well in Kentucky that it would do just a good a job up this way in winter on snowshoe hare? (off topic but I felt inclined to ask anyway, sorry)

I will answer for him, take my dogs to your place for 2 weeks and send me yours for 2 weeks at the end of term my hounds can do better in snow than yours on a our rabbits. . I done been north and ran hare just not in deep snow.JMHO

[Pine Mt Beagles]

NORWESTER
A RABBIT HOUND SHOULD BE !!!!!ABLE TO HUNT ALL DAY LIKE IT'S BUTT IS ON FIRE AND IT'S TAIL'' IS TRYING TO PUT IT OUT,HIT EVERY THICK SPOT IT CAN FIND 'WITH NO RESPECT FOR IT'S BODY'' 7 DAY'S A WEEK ALL DAY.JUMP A RABBIT OR HARE FROM A SIT UP, AND HAS THE NOSE AND BRAINS TO RUN IT TO THE HOLE OR GUN.SLOW A LITTLE IN THE ROUGH SPOTS' WITHOUT MAKING A CHECK' AND KEEP MAKING FORWARD PROGRESS,AND RUN IT AT A 10 SPEED IN THE GOOD SPOTS'.USES IT'S MOUTH RIGHT AND HAS A GOOD MOUTH.NO COLD TRAILING OR OFF GAME.GOOD KENNEL MANNERS.HANDLES REALLY WELL,GOOD PERSONALITY.NO FIGHTING.GOOD CONFORMATION,,,,,,NOW FOR THE BIG QUESTION CAN IT REPRODUCE IT'S SELF,,VERY UNLIKELY UNLESS IT'S LINE BREED.AND LIKE TIM SAID IT WILL ONLY BE GOOD FOR A FEW YRS, IF IT CAN'T REPRODUCE.NO I DON'T HAVE A HOUND LIKE THE ONE I NAMED YOU JUST ASK ME WHAT MY DEFINATION OF A RABBIT HOUND WAS.. THAT IS JUST MY GOAL IN BREEDING..GOOD POST AND A GOOD QUESTION.THANKS
PINE MT BEAGLES

[Pine Mt Beagles]

HEY JIMBO
YOU DIDN'T TELL HIM ALL OUR HOUNDS ARE NORTHER BRED HARE HOUNDS ,JUST RAISED IN A DIFFERENT ENVIRONMENT. ARE WE GOING TO GET TO HUNT BEFORE SEASON GOES OUT,,
PINE MT BEAGLES

[NorWester1]

RIVER BOTTOM
THAT PIC.CRACKS ME UP ,HOW MANY WORD DOES ROSE TYPE PER MIN.,HAS TO BE MUCH BETTER THAN ME ,I HAVE RAN DOGS NORTH SOUTH EAST AND WEST AND IF YOU HAVE A RABBIT HOUND IT CAN RUN ANY WHERE YOU PUT IT,
KEP'EM RUNNING
PINE MT BEAGLES

Really? What exactly is your definition of a rabbit hound?

Do you think that it is realistic to assume that because you have a dog that can hunt/run a cottontail rabbit well in Kentucky that it would do just a good a job up this way in winter on snowshoe hare? (off topic but I felt inclined to ask anyway, sorry)

I will answer for him, take my dogs to your place for 2 weeks and send me yours for 2 weeks at the end of term my hounds can do better in snow than yours on a our rabbits. . I done been north and ran hare just not in deep snow.JMHO

That's a pretty boastful statement, you are obviously very confident in the abilities of your hounds and I appreciate that fact. Why don't you come on up as I'd love to see your dogs run.
If your hounds can run hare well up here in these conditions then I'd be very interested in aquiring dogs like yours and I certainly won't be ashamed to say so. I don't have any loyalty to any particular dog or bloodline. I've gone out of my way to aquire more than a few typical LPH style hare bred hounds and so far I've not had much luck so if you're serious about your statement I really would like to see your dogs run. No one would be running against each other, the only competition is the hare and mother nature. It can't get much simpler than that I wouldn't think.

We have just over a couple of feet of dry powder snow on the ground and the over nite temps have been in the middle -30's without factoring in wind chill. I wouldn't expect too many dogs to be able to run first thing but perhaps midday it will have warmed up enough to make it more tolerable for everyone. This cold snap is supposed to break by Sunday (more snow forcasted) so perhaps maybe that will be more to your liking?

[mybeagles]

When I say that Ive been through 200 dogs trying to find a superstar, only 2 litters were dogs I bred. The rest were from all the "proven" linebred lines out there. The guys that were claiming to have a real solid line with consistancy.

If you read that EXCELLENT article someone linked in on pg 8 or 9 it talks about the 3 breeding methods. I have read similar articles before. The key from what I gathered is LINEBREEDING/INBREEDING is not for beginners or backyard breeders. Mighty few beaglers know what are the recesive genes, sex linked genes, dominant, homozygotic, heterozygotic etc etc etc. I have a BA in Science and couldnt tell you for sure what traits are in what category for a beagle. Hunting traits are difficult to asses and may take 2 years to see a beagles full potential is. Show qualities are esier to identify, but by the looks of the average hunting beagle, this has been thrown out the window. That said, if you dont know those things you cant possible have any clue how to inbreed/linebreed the traits in or out. In breeding a pair to expose a recessive fault so you can clean the gene pool is not what breeders are doing. Whats happening is guys are using the methods for selecting outcrosses and applying them to inbreeding not realizing how many recessive traits they are proliferating into the beagle world.

Inbreeding/linebreeding/crossbreeding is actually a science and by reading these posts for years I dont get the impression many have a clue what Science is. Linbreeding has become a fad that gripped the breeding world. Many breeders jumped on board, problem is, most are doing it in the dark. CLUELESS. I know enough to know I dont know enough to be doing it RIGHT. For those that dont, they're destroying lines of dogs everytime they make a cross.

To pull from Ron Conroe, "where are these great lines of consistant dogs" Dont see them dominating the trials, dont even see them producing great hunting stock year after year. If they were, you would have a list 10 miles long for guys wanting pups. Proof is in the results.