NBC 2005 BOB Ch. Windkist A Walk In The Park

blunder · Post by **blunder** » Wed Sep 20, 2006 8:16 am

marr24 wrote:
Hunt and desire and HEART are very elusive qualities in a field dog
I can't really agree with that, at least with beagles, I've yet to be around a field-bred beagle that DIDN'T have all three of those qualities. I believe that's why many people feel that breeding hunting hounds to show hounds should be a practice in extreme caution. In my opinion, there are plenty of beagles bred for hunting ability that have good conformation, and better yet, they have proved it in the field.

Wouldn't matter if every dog on the planet had those qualities, it is still what makes a hunting dog, any hunting dog, worth the effort to train and take to the field. Unfortunatlly tho' you are a very luck person to have never seen a field bred Beagle that lacks those qualities.

tom

sav · Post by **sav** » Wed Sep 20, 2006 9:27 am

marr 24 wrote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

marr24 wrote:
Quote:
Hunt and desire and HEART are very elusive qualities in a field dog

I can't really agree with that, at least with beagles, I've yet to be around a field-bred beagle that DIDN'T have all three of those qualities. I believe that's why many people feel that breeding hunting hounds to show hounds should be a practice in extreme caution. In my opinion, there are plenty of beagles bred for hunting ability that have good conformation, and better yet, they have proved it in the field.

Well said Marr, Iagree with you. I think that too much is made of conformation, I know I'll get ragged for this but I've never owned a show dog of any breed and have never had a dog breakdown early from structure issues. I think that the "field" lines of all breeds have structure enough to last day in day out doing the job they where intended for, there is always exceptions but as a rule I have found this to be true.

marr24 · Post by **marr24** » Wed Sep 20, 2006 2:37 pm

Wouldn't matter if every dog on the planet had those qualities, it is still what makes a hunting dog, any hunting dog, worth the effort to train and take to the field

I don't at all disagree with that, I simply disagreed with those qualities being elusive in field dogs. Maybe I have been lucky, but I stand by the statement. Yes, there is some bad conformation in some field-bred beagles, but there is also very good conformation in other field-bred beagles. Here's a question, how do you know the show champ dog you're breeding to for better conformation, has heart, hunt, and desire if it's never been proven in the field? Or is that just the chance you take?
I'm not trying to be difficult, I really enjoy these boards and I respect the beaglers that want the best of both worlds!

sav · Post by **sav** » Wed Sep 20, 2006 3:10 pm

Unless a dog has been given a chance in the field to prove his hunt/heart there is no way to know, which is why I believe the future of any "hunting/working" breed has to lay in the field lines. Confirmation is great but never at the expense of hunt.

blunder · Post by **blunder** » Wed Sep 20, 2006 5:28 pm

Funny part of this discussion is that I come from a field dog background, but happen to have some show dogs.
Maybe that is why I see the importance of good conformation, because I see other breeds that are on the verge of implosion because of breeding practices that only emphasize winning in the field at the expense of every thing else. Like would you believe that in recient years 41 qualifiers for the Retriever National Open have had the same sire. (not counting 2006)

tom

marr24 · Post by **marr24** » Wed Sep 20, 2006 7:00 pm

I'm going to go out there on a limb and say that there are probably more breeds about to implode as a result of poor breeding practices due to showing, not working. There are many examples of breeds whose field or work abilities have virtually disappeared thanks to way too much importance put on conformation, at the cost of these dogs' original purposes. Just look at the Golden Retriever, Cocker Spaniel, Poodle, Newfoundland, German Shepard, Irish Setter etc. I could really go on and on. I think that's what worries me, I really don't want the beagle "dumbed down" like many other breeds have been.

TC · Post by TC » Wed Sep 20, 2006 7:01 pm

Ya know I have come to the Conclusion of to EACH THIER OWN...
It just so happens I like to hunt behind a PRETTY DOG!!!
I have been on both sides of this discussion for a long time and what it seems to boil down to is the old Sayin to Each thier own Feed what ya like and like what ya Feed!!!
I Just happen to have Show Dogs that Hunt and Huntin Dogs that Show.
I just like havin Em Wrapped in the Same package!!!!!

blunder · Post by **blunder** » Wed Sep 20, 2006 7:20 pm

marr24 wrote:I'm going to go out there on a limb and say that there are probably more breeds about to implode as a result of poor breeding practices due to showing, not working. There are many examples of breeds whose field or work abilities have virtually disappeared thanks to way too much importance put on conformation, at the cost of these dogs' original purposes. Just look at the Golden Retriever, Cocker Spaniel, Poodle, Newfoundland, German Shepard, Irish Setter etc. I could really go on and on. I think that's what worries me, I really don't want the beagle "dumbed down" like many other breeds have been.

I don't dissagree with that,, but I would point out that there is plenty of blame to go around. IMHO both side have looked out for their own interests with not enough intrest for their breed in general.

Here is something that some good friends did this summer that might demonstrate what can be done if a person wants to put in the effort and time.

"Push"
http://www.ambertrail.com/pushstuddog.html

tom

mooredog · Post by **mooredog** » Wed Sep 20, 2006 7:20 pm

TC you hit it on the head ! and I like mine just like yours !!!!

Beaglebrit · Post by **Beaglebrit** » Wed Sep 20, 2006 8:37 pm

Many field dogs all have heart, hunt and desire..those are essential qualities...But I am talking about EXTREME HEART....It is a dog that has endless bottom..refusal to quit no matter the weather conditions ..terrrain of physical challenges...The dog that keeps working with a thorn thru his pad.. a Bird dog that hits a barbed wire fence and takes 14 stitches but you don't know she's cut until you go to load up at the end of the day...We recently had a FC dog snake bit while running.. that dog was still running, with the Pack when we noticed his hitched leg and picked him up and treated him. These are the kind of dogs that have extreme heart and desire. In the show ring you will see the superb show man...Parker is one of these dogs... on the road most of the year and still gives his all....Bunny the Izbeathan(sp) Hound Clint Livingston showed, Or going back to "ancient times" in the early 80's Bees Knees a pointer shown by Micheal Zollo, these dogs sent chills up my spine watching them work in the ring. Most dogs have heart and desire
but once you see EXTREME HEART expresssed it is a beautiful thing...and to own a dog who has those trait is truely a once in a lifetime experience

blunder · Post by **blunder** » Wed Sep 20, 2006 10:43 pm

Now that is on the mark!!
I would venture to say that most of us have been around a dog at one time or another that stood out in a croud. I know I have.

This could be a little bit of fun, tell us about a dog that really caught your attention.

This was somewhat of a local dog from Meridian Idaho.
You could go to a trial and watch dog after dog and after a while they would all start to look the same, I'm sure any trialers on here know exactlly the feeling I'm talking about. But there was one dog some years back that when he came to the line every one stoped what ever they were doing and took notice that it was Clipper in the field. Clipper just held his head a little highed than any other dog, he knew he was the best and he made sure you did too.

This pic kinda says it all
Hunting on the Snake River in December
DC/AFC Coot's Gypsy Clipper, MH
Clipper was the first dog in history to attain all 4 titles (any breed)
He is also the sire/grandsire of 4 dogs that have now done the same
(the only 5 dogs to ever do it)

tom

Larry G · Post by **Larry G** » Thu Sep 21, 2006 7:59 am

Some people will keep pretty ones that don't do well, I will keep a butt ugly one if it does well enough... MOF my best dog now is about the ugliest critter imaginable. But I am trying to get the best of both. It's not easy because the beagles have been bred, with a very few exceptions, for either one or the other, not both. Not just the beagles but many breeds. Soundness, agility, heart, all the good qualities you can name, can come in an ugly package that does not resemble a beagle. Short, high set ears, snip nose, crook tail, a bit too long or short in the body, feet and legs that don't resemble the post-straight, cat-footed show dog.... all this won't stop a good hound from doing its job. It just insults the breed.

TouchstoneBeagles · Post by **TouchstoneBeagles** » Thu Sep 21, 2006 8:06 am

I don't think I could breed to a dog that I didn't know had the characteristics that would help my line. No matter how nice a show dog it is or no matter how great its hunting ancestry is. If you are going to breed to a show dog it had better run a rabbit or you could be hurting more than helping. Some show lines seem much stronger for show traits.

Beagle Huntsman · Post by **Beagle Huntsman** » Thu Sep 21, 2006 9:30 pm

Depends on what you are after. I bred to CH. Shaw's Spirit of the Chase. He didn't hunt a lick, but he was out of some show lines that I knew did produce hunting hounds. Chase was a tremendous producer of conformation, however. Something like 85 champions or more produced? The puppies I got from him helped my breeding program tremendously. His pups all hunted, but his grandpups and great-grandpups (bred back into my lines) have been even better. Sometimes you have to think ahead a generation or two to be able to have progress. Hound breeding takes imagination and foresight. It also involves some risk.

crewchf · Post by **crewchf** » Fri Oct 06, 2006 8:58 am

Leah,, On the Purina Pro Club website it states that Ole Parker eats nothin but Purina Pro Plan Performance food!!! Is this true????

Rich Piacentine

The American Beagler Forum

NBC 2005 BOB Ch. Windkist A Walk In The Park

hunting dogs