Soloing a dog

[David Bowers]

John Way you said it all.
Good one!!!

[mybeagles]

Is it fair to say the most critical aspect to hound development is ground time?

For those that refuse to solo for whatever reason, what happens to the hounds that don't excel as a young hound with constant pack pressure? The Dogs For Sale board is FULL of dogs that "go with older dogs but need solo time to finish". In my experience most of these hounds have missed their window of opportunity and just get passed around.

Should we cull or sell every dog that doesn't thrive under our narrow training method? This goes for solo and pack guys although I don't know anyone that advocates solo only.

[2barrel]

WVDaniel .........John Way is giving you good advice. I would only add that if training a rabbit dog involved only soloing this would be a simple game. IMO soloing helps but like anything else to much of a good thing may be bad. You have to watch your dogs and judge them without being partial. Young hounds are born with traits it the handler responsible to encourage the good ones and discourage the bad. The most important think is enjoy the whole process and learn from our mistakes.

[pilotknob]

Some of the roughest over the top competitive hounds I've ever seen had been soloed to death.Also seen some that were good but were ok with slotting up and running with the pack that were never soloed or not soloed much most likely would have been much better hounds with more confidence and edge to them.I like Johns post,one size doesn't fit all.

[NorWester1]

Mybeagles wrote,

For those that refuse to solo for whatever reason, what happens to the hounds that don't excel as a young hound with constant pack pressure? The Dogs For Sale board is FULL of dogs that "go with older dogs but need solo time to finish". In my experience most of these hounds have missed their window of opportunity and just get passed around

Your logic here is backwards at best.....so a dogs for sale board full of older dogs that need solo time to finish, is the direct result of not enough solo time? Really? I would say it's the direct result of breeders/owners not doing what should have been done and still trying to make a buck.
You're are correct in one aspect ....there's was a window of opportunity missed....but it was missed when there should have been some culling going on.

Dave, you do realize that breeding a hound based on it's "solo" performance proliferates the faults seen in a pack setting don't you?
You do realize that packing a dog consistently does not create faults....it exposes them, don't you?

Mybeagles wrote,

Should we cull or sell every dog that doesn't thrive under our narrow training method

You can call it narrow or whatever you like....but yes, if a hound does not meet our standard ( to be loosely taken given that everyone's standard varies)....cull it, don't sell it, CULL IT.
If you are not in a position to do this....perhaps you shouldn't be breeding dogs.

Is it possible the market is absolutely flooded with dogs not given adequate training opportunities as a pup and flooded us with mediocrity?Is it fair to say the most critical aspect to hound development is ground time?

I think it's more likely the market is flooded with mediocre dogs bred to mediocre standards.

I understand everyones desire to bring out the best in the individual for the sake of the individual....but this does not help with breeding a better hound unless breeding a hound to run solo is the ultimate goal.

[Newt]

Is it fair to say the most critical aspect to hound development is ground time?

For those that refuse to solo for whatever reason, what happens to the hounds that don't excel as a young hound with constant pack pressure? The Dogs For Sale board is FULL of dogs that "go with older dogs but need solo time to finish". In my experience most of these hounds have missed their window of opportunity and just get passed around.

Should we cull or sell every dog that doesn't thrive under our narrow training method? This goes for solo and pack guys although I don't know anyone that advocates solo only.

Their opportunity passed away when the mating took place.

Most of those dogs were probably the result of pedigree to pedigree breeding.
I've had the opportunity recently to run some dogs that were sired by a popular international field champion. Its hard to solo a dog that can't circle a rabbit on a good day and would rather rest at my feet than look for a rabbit.

[mybeagles]

You do realize that packing a dog consistently does not create faults....it exposes them, don't you?

I don't agree with that. Seen lots of dogs that blend into the pack and appear to be contributing but take away the pack and they can't get out of their shadow. I also believe many guys evaluate the pack on voice more than marked lines and knowing what the rabbit did. Upset field trialers are case in point....sounds like their dog is whipping every other dog but in reality being very disruptive or accomplishing nothing.

So if a dog can't handle a strong pack at young age it's faulty?

Seems unrealistic to force a dog to run before it can walk.

I think it's more likely the market is flooded with mediocre dogs bred to mediocre standards.

Can you provide the name of breeders that only make the good selective crosses that consistently produce quality hounds that mature young and handle pack pressure without any solo time??? Is it possible we put too much unrealistic pressure on young dogs rather than giving them the solo time they need even if that means we don't have time to keep 8-10 dogs. Taking short cuts and blaming the breeder is cop out in my eyes.

Their opportunity passed away when the mating took placed.

Seen way too many dogs that sit in kennel for 2 years out of proven crosses that never amount to anything. I can't blame that on bad cross, but rather irresponsible ownership. There are many bad crosses made but even more dogs don't stand a chance because they never get run.

[NorWester1]

Dave, c'mon man.....you just gave a perfect example of how a pack setting exposes a fault. Appearing to contribute and actually contributing are two different things....it's up to us to be able to recognize the difference right?

Run the same pack all the time....it won't take long to figure out who is doing what.

So if a dog can't handle a strong pack at young age it's faulty?

Although there is obvious catch in your last statement I'll give you the answer you expect to trap me with

YES..... you want to eliminate faults in your breeding don't you?
No one forces anything, how do you force a dog do to something it doesn't want to??
You are putting a dog into an environment you EXPECT him to perform and one which he should be bred for.
The best ones will do it. You cull the ones that don't.
There are young dogs that CAN handle the pressure from a strong pack at a young age.....wouldn't you like to breed/keep those ones as opposed to some other pup that needs to be soloed till it's 7 years old?

Now that said, just for sh*ts and giggles.....ask me if I run pups with my adult dogs

Mybeagles wrote,

Can you provide the name of breeders that only make the good selective crosses that consistently produce quality hounds that mature young and handle pack pressure without any solo time??? Is it possible we put too much unrealistic pressure on young dogs rather than giving them the solo time they need even if that means we don't have time to keep 8-10 dogs. Taking short cuts and blaming the breeder is cop out in my eyes.

There's one posting on this thread...JCM . Now I don't know anything about trialing but I believe he has won the world's more than once. Pretty sure in the trialing world that's a big deal.
And I do alright and so does Bud.....not winning trials of course but for what we're after it's coming along.

Mybeagles wrote,

Seen way too many dogs that sit in kennel for 2 years out of proven crosses that never amount to anything. I can't blame that on bad cross, but rather irresponsible ownership. There are many bad crosses made but even more dogs don't stand a chance because they never get run.

I can agree with this statement but I don't see how that has anything to do with soloing or packing.

[mybeagles]

Norwester,

I don't breed very often....leave that to the experts.

JCM is Little pack guy running a different style all together. I can see where solo work would be pointless. Nothing against little pack, just a different world.

This thread is turning into comparing apples to oranges to grapes mainly due to my comments. I'll bow out and just read what others have to say.

[Rowco Beagle Kennels]

Had a really good 5 pack run last night but it's freezing and sleeting again. Boys if the winter does not soon leave, we are going to stare at these screens until we go nuts whether we solo or not. By the way I respect you all and believe as has been stated so many times, if you feed them, it is up to you what you keep. Bobby

[ANTHONY KERR]

I started soloing for a different reason. I had a female that was waaay stronger than the rest of the dogs I had at the time. I had to solo her to keep her from blowing up any more of my pack than she already did. She destroyed a female I owned that won 3 little pack trials as an open and probably damaged others psyche more than once. I knew I had to dog up, but could not do it all at once. It was a thing of beauty to hear her pound one. Some of her offspring are showing signs of running off and leaving the others and will get some pack work and some solo work.

[wvdaniel]

WVDaniel .........John Way is giving you good advice. I would only add that if training a rabbit dog involved only soloing this would be a simple game. IMO soloing helps but like anything else to much of a good thing may be bad. You have to watch your dogs and judge them without being partial. Young hounds are born with traits it the handler responsible to encourage the good ones and discourage the bad. The most important think is enjoy the whole process and learn from our mistakes.

I under stand that. Too much of a good thing. I run mine in a pack a lot. But I thank that 1 out of 4 or 5 times out solo is a good thing with a young dog

[Rowco Beagle Kennels]

I started soloing for a different reason. I had a female that was waaay stronger than the rest of the dogs I had at the time. I had to solo her to keep her from blowing up any more of my pack than she already did. She destroyed a female I owned that won 3 little pack trials as an open and probably damaged others psyche more than once. I knew I had to dog up, but could not do it all at once. It was a thing of beauty to hear her pound one. Some of her offspring are showing signs of running off and leaving the others and will get some pack work and some solo work.

Hey Anthony, you don't have to do all that soloing. If you have that problem again, just call me; I'll try to help you with her. Bobby

[ANTHONY KERR]

I started soloing for a different reason. I had a female that was waaay stronger than the rest of the dogs I had at the time. I had to solo her to keep her from blowing up any more of my pack than she already did. She destroyed a female I owned that won 3 little pack trials as an open and probably damaged others psyche more than once. I knew I had to dog up, but could not do it all at once. It was a thing of beauty to hear her pound one. Some of her offspring are showing signs of running off and leaving the others and will get some pack work and some solo work.

Hey Anthony, you don't have to do all that soloing. If you have that problem again, just call me; I'll try to help you with her. Bobby

What a pal ! Bobby you will be the first to know.

[deerhost]

What kind of beaglers are we if the only tool we have is to throw a pup into a pack and watch it either sink or swim?.....just sayin......dh