AKC

[bill huttozac]

IMO, AKC is kind of "UPside Down" when it come to discipline for those that violate the rules. In example, the AKC Secretary's Page for May 2011 list these two, among other, decisions of th Disciplinary Committee

Notice
The AKC’s Management Disciplinary Committee has suspended the following individuals from all AKC privileges for five years, effective April 11, 2011 and imposed a $1000 fine for refusing to make their dogs and records available for inspection when requested. ......Name deleted -------(Salisbury, NC) Multiple Breeds.

Notice
The AKC’s Management Disciplinary Committee has suspended ......name deleted ......Livingston, TX, from all AKC privileges for six months, effective February 14, 2011, and imposed a fine of $500 for having submitted or caused to be submitted two litter registration
applications that he knew, should have known, or had a duty to know contained false certifications (DNA exclusion). (Multiple Breeds)

I am of the opinion that Notice number two is the greater offense because it effects many dogs as well as many people, but yet, the violator received the lesser penalty. Guys, we are nothing more than a money source that only buys empty promises.

Now to DNA profiling. Do we really believe that when we have one of our nice male dogs DNAd that AKC verifies it's parentage even though the dog's Sire has a DNA Profile on record? I do not think so !!!

[bucks better beagles]

Of the hundreds (thousands) of people who regularly view this post, only 45 bothered to vote. Does this tell us anything? Probably not but, since this is an important issue, I would have thought more people would have responded. JMO

[bucks better beagles]

Smart me. 1170 people viewed the post, 45 responded to the poll. I guess the rest don't care one way or the other what happens at AKC.

[Tsa la gi]

Ohio,
It would be nice to have the blk/w on that issue. That is what should have been done here.

Bill,
AKC has already been advised as to what would happen if they were to come to my house. When their records are as straight as mine They are Welcome.

Buck ,
Wait till it happens to some of them(different story). When I get screwed I like to get kissed. We`ll just have to see how it all plays out. You know how much of a ornery ass I am so this ain`t gonna go away for awhile.

[bucks better beagles]

Yea Charley, I know you are like a big old Missouri bulldog: Slow to grab hold of something, but once you do, it takes a crow bar to make you let go. Let me know how it turns out and keep us all informed of your progress. If you need money for the lawyers, I will contribute. Maybe more people will donate a little to the cause.

[Mo. Beagler 5000]

views don't mean that 1170 different people viewed it....... the same person could have viewed it 100 times and the number would go up and not let the same guy vote again....

anyway, i didn't vote because I don't have any akc dogs and I don't really like the brace or spo format and there isnt enough trials to justify my interest or care what happens to them.. that being said, if you have a solid case I think you should go for it... I am sure every breed has had this same problem a few times..

[da ridgetop]

Dont know the hole issue and i am not condoning changing papers or falsifying breedings at all but is it possible that the cross thats in question might have been a male out of the male that was supposed to have sired the litter? has any of these dogs ever been dna? what percentage of your dogs pedigree is affected after 13yrs understand ped on 1st is 50% but how deep in your peds is it and do you think this is why akc chose not to do anything because of the percentage thats wrong?
I wouldnt change papers or falsify a breeding and dont want you to think im makin light of your situation but honestly probably 50% of registered dogs are not all what there pedigree says they are because dogs are worth more with papers dog traders being what they are you can bet many a high powered hound aint what its supposed to be, hope you get it worked out but truthfully all your gonna do is get your rights banned and give some di$$head your money so i vote no
Best of luck
DonaldAlexander

[cojax]

da ridgetop then why do u have akc dogs and why do you waste your money registering them thanks cojax

[Bev]

Wow. I don't even know where to begin with this, but you know I have to put my 2 cents in (lol). I did not read the epistle on the other thread, I'm just going by what's been written and shown here. I'm sure this will honk some people off, but conversely, it might give someone a different perspective.


#1. AKC isn't "screwing" anybody out of hundreds of dollars. AKC registration is a voluntary program; not a law. Nobody's got a gun to your head telling you you must register your dogs, and register them with AKC. You choose to do that. They state their price to "record" your puppy, you agree to pay it. The papers are sent in complete with payment and they are recorded as written. Both parties have fullfilled their parts. The registration fee does not give you lifetime insurance and protection against misdeeds that didn't originate in their office. If so, it would be called the AKC Registration and Lifetime Guarantee of Extensive Genetic Untangling.

#2. This breeding took place over 13 years ago? The DNA program didn't even start until 2000, and then it's only required of "frequently used sires." If I recall correctly, everybody bitched at the time when they were told they had just bred their 3rd litter out of a male that year, or the 7th in his lifetime, and would now have to get him DNA profiled to register future litters. Some people purposefully bred their male less than 3 times per year, or turned in a litter registration using the name of the littermate brother of the male actually bred, to avoid paying the 35 bucks to DNA the dog. So much for integrity. I'm sure AKC is well-staffed enough to sit down at the kitchen counter of every dog breeder of every breed, and make sure they are filling their paperwork out correctly. Honor system indeed. They can only record what you give them. Their computers are no different than ours; garbage in/garbage out.

#3. So if it's been brought to light that the breeding didn't take place, does anyone know who the actual sire was? Any way to prove it? It's been stated that Charley's main mission is to know the real bloodline of his Kojak dog. Without DNA records and an honest breeder, how do you suppose this will be done? How do you expect AKC to untangle a genetic mess that occurred years before the DNA program, and on dogs that are now dead? And this is their fault, how? 13 years ago may be a mere 2 generations, but the way people like to stick 2 unproven dogs together first time the bitch comes in heat, it could be 10 generations. Unless a dog is inbred to hell and back, the average dog person knows the influence of any one particular dog is pretty much diluted to nothing after 3 generations. This was the breeder's fault, and he's the one you should be going after. AKC didn't breed those dogs. You're asking them to do the impossible. They aren't about to waste legal dollars trying to placate people who didn't keep a good handle on what was happening to their dogs 13 years ago, when it won't change the situation one bit.

#4.

You are correct their are probably other instanceses of this sort.Am I concerned about that Hell no I`m concerned about my problem...

And that's probably the same attitude taken by the guy who forged your name.

I understand you are hopping mad, and you can't get to the breeder, so you want AKC to make it right, and you're ready to sue the pants off them and wave torches through the streets if they don't. You want to smear their name in the papers and punish them because they won't do what you can't do. It will never be right, you will never know with 100% certainty the lineage of your dog. It will be this way until DNA is required for both sire and dam of every breeding and then all puppies are tested against it. Just imagine the fees and the cost of a litter when that happens. AKC can put rules and guidelines into place, but as long as dishonest people can find a way to circumvent them, they will, and most of them never have and never will get caught. So as far as any registry goes, AKC, UKC or ARHA, they are ALL grade dogs in reality.

[da ridgetop]

da ridgetop then why do u have akc dogs and why do you waste your money registering them thanks cojax

cojax
I keep akc registered dogs like everybody else because they are the best(or supposed to be the best) in the buisness at keeping records and i want the best i can afford, but at the end of the day its an honor system and its only as good as the people using it.I dont blame anybody for bein upset when they find a false breeding has taken place and want something done about it,but they have taken a step in the right direction with the dna profiling and hopefully it will get better with time but even with dna its still gonna happen because not everybody out there is gonna be honest.All we can do as responsible dog owners and breeders is do the right thing ourselves and make sure our records are accurate.
Like i said before best of luck hope it works out for you
Donald Alexander

[cojax]

da ridgetop i understand what your point is but the problem has been pointed out to the akc for them to deal with it and while it don't change the fact that someone forged papers and breeding's were made that aren't what the paper says it is ,still it is not right for the akc to say well 13 years is to long to do anything about and the matter is closed....especially when parties involved are still breeding and registering hounds......get in line you can buy all you want....because they are still selling them. This is were the akc should do what we are paying them for and police their own registry. thanks cojax

[S.R.Patch]

I think the biggest qualm here is, AKC imposes rules, regulation, penalties and fines upon us to maintain record for their "now supposed" integrity,... and now this is all put into question when a factual error is brought to light and presented to them for corrective action.
If you leave "rot" in the bushel, it spreads and spoils the whole lot.
The only action taken was "non-action".

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion according to their own standards, but there's an old school standard that says, "you should get what you pay for".
At the least, these effected hounds should go on the "conditional" registry. or since AKC has an "open" option to enter dogs now. The point being, the hound would still have their papers, but would not be used in the AKC breeding program further.

An what penalty for the infraction? Surly this is the working of politics and money at it's best...

Chuck, your "kennel blindness" has just become well founded...

Your pedigree may not be right, but your hound better not be over 15", rules are rules. what a joke

[Bev]

This is were the akc should do what we are paying them for and police their own registry. thanks cojax

But that's the thing, cojax, it's not the registry that needs policing; they did nothing wrong in this type scenario. What you are asking is actually is for them to police and then subsequently punish the breeders....who need to be policing themselves. Best way to do that is don't buy dogs from a breeder you can't trust or a bloodline you can't be comfortable is 98% correct (because you know none of them are 100%, right?) What needs to happen (just my opinion) is this is a civil case between the breeders. AKC is not a court of law. Take the guy to court. If the judge finds him guilty, then take that to AKC with a plea to shut down everybody who has bred and is still breeding dogs that have descended from that false mating. And then go buy a lottery ticket, lol. The chances would be better.

There's this thing called "Statute of Limitations." Even serious crimes have them. Here's an excerpt from a site I will reference (so nobody can accuse me of plagerism:

Why do we have state statues of limitations? State statute of limitation laws are for the protection of the individual. If cases were allowed to be held for an indeterminate amount of time, several issues arise. First off, over time, evidence can be damaged, memories can fade, and prosecution becomes unreliable. Second, no one should have the specter of past deeds (or suspicion of deeds), hanging over their heads. Limiting the amount of time a crime can be investigated ensures that an individual can go on with their life in a timely manner.

State statutes cover various crimes and vary vastly state by state. Some common state statutes are for drinking and driving, where most states have a year to file charges against a person. Other common crimes that have statute of limitations include rape, domestic abuse, and robbery.
http://www.resource4criminallaw.com/sta ... tions.html

Heck, there's a 6-year statute of limitation on the federal government to file criminal charges against a person for failing to file taxes. If AKC has decided 13 years is too long to go back and start smacking hands, I'd say put the crying towel up and get on with it.

-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
ETA:

An what penalty for the infraction? Surly this is the working of politics and money at it's best...

Always workin' that conspiracy theory angle, eh Patch? (lol)

[S.R.Patch]

Then let's drop the DNA requirement and the Kennel inspections if they can't do the job properly. No need wasting good money on a Registry if the money's better spent finding reputable breeders instead.
GREAT idea !!! This would surly result in lower fees for more registering of hounds.

ETA,... Bev., let stick to the topic at hand and leave personal vendetta's out of it, shall we...

[Bev]

Wow, Patch. Let's just take that one step further. Let's just give up on medical research, too since they can't fix things immediately with billions of dollars. No such things as baby steps are there? Cure cancer right the first time or don't try at all. That should lower the cost of our medicines.