Heavy inbreeding or linebreeding

[bill (flint river )]

u know what I hate, is cleaning up someone else mess. bugs the hell out of me. older I get the harder it gets.

[cris axtell/coal hill ken]

I hear you Bill. That's why I bread to Brush Hog. I'm just an amateur at this compared to most of you guys. I just do this for fun. I've been lucky to get some good dogs starting with a total out cross. That's right I said it.(out cross) Now I'm line breeding that cross and I will have to out cross again some day.

[littlewoody]

What u wrote is bs . But some people just know how to breed hounds .

Like who? Enlight us all so that we might share in the knowledge.

http://www.beaglescanada.org/bccryonbeagles.html

[Pine Lakes]

What u wrote is bs . But some people just know how to breed hounds .

Like who? Enlight us all so that we might share in the knowledge.

http://www.beaglescanada.org/bccryonbeagles.html

Call George and ask him how many don't make it. Then call Branko, Vic, and I wish you could talk to Monk. Send Harry Snow Jr a pm and discuss this issue with him as he has had plenty of success. You act as if the Steeves make a cross and it is automatic and that is foolish. Here's one to counter what you are trying to get at. Shaw's Oakwood Callie. Go ahead and look up what she reproduced. After you realize how good of a reproducer she was know that she would have not eaten any of the afformentioned's feed. She could hardly run a rabbit, and when she tried it was ugly. She produced some of the finest dogs I've seen run. Call John Dewyse and ask him about the great cross of Pacesetter and Tweedy McCaul. If I remember correctly it was done 3 times without consistency. Don't think that I advocate breeding junk dogs because I don't. There are some things that are just intolerable, however there are some things that are unviewable to the naked eye too.

What the Steeves, Krpans, and other fine houndsmen and women do is raise litters, keep a good portion of those litters if not all, start the pups, and cull hard. That is not being able to predict what the outcome of a litter is going to be. That is hard work, dedication, a watchful eye, and an intolerance of poor abilities/performance. Where we get lucky is raising or buying hounds that are good reproducers just like Shaw's Oakwood Callie. Eyer's Geneo is another example. I ran with Geneo many times and he was a good rabbit dog but nothing that would "blow you away". I think it is safe to say he reproduced better than he was himself, but I doubt he was a dog the Steeves, Krpans, or Monk would've used as a stud and that would have been unfortunate. Call Don Hoog and talk to him. There are no shortcuts or ways around this. I never criticize anyone's choice of breeding for these reasons. I've seen patch hounds without a single field champion in there pedigree absolutely destroy packs of well bred hare hounds. I've seen substandard dogs reproduce great hounds and great hounds produce terrible dogs. You just never know and anyone that claims they do is feeding you a line of BS.

Now that I've explained myself to the best of my abilities. I expect you would be a little less disrespectful and a little more understanding, even if you don't agree with my view. I don't take offense to your disagreement, but you can come across as very confrontational at times. Good luck to you sir.

[cris axtell/coal hill ken]

Good post Pine lakes. You hit the nail on the head. If your pups are not as good as or better than the sire and dam you need to do something different. I had a female that was a cold nosed back tracker. But she produced some exceptional pups. Here's a good article on line breeding. http://www.westwindgsps/linebreeding.htm

[S.R.Patch]

Standard, selection, science & art of the breeder are the tools to successful breeding.

The best water does not come from the main tributaries many times as it gets used, muddied and redistributed back into the main stream, but most times it comes from the headwaters or branches that are slow moving, filtered and purified by the elements that the sediments and impurities are never allowed to enter.

Line/inbreeding just for the sake of line/inbreeding without using all the tools required will get you out of the game in a hurry. The biggest problem I see is gaining a consensus of understanding of what line breeding is and what inbreeding is, and why and when it is used. Then, the belief that you can breed "super dogs" by its use. I've never seen any line of hounds develop into super dog by line/inbreeding, but have seen the "consistency" of a family of hounds brought to a level that most all were good serviceable hounds, and when the stars align, many better than average and some super star individuals resulted. The realistic goal of line/inbreeding is not to breed super hounds, but to bring the majority of all hounds produced to a level of standard that makes them acceptable and useful as good rabbit hounds, the disappointments will always be with us but the percentages of good hounds stamped with quality will be greatly in our favor.

[warddog]

I personally, am not big on inbreeding. I am however in favor of line breeding, maybe to a fault. I'm certainly not a big breeder nor do I want to be in fear of the lack of burial grounds. I've overlooked good studs for lesser dogs(still good though) in an attempt to "highlight" the characteristics of a particular line. It is my opinion that certain lines handle inbreeding and linebreeding better than others. The old Mt Zion Pete lines seemed to react differently than say the Fish Creek line of hounds. It seemed to me that heavy linebred Pete dogs could be very aggressive while the Fish Creek strain seemed to develop shyness and lose size. Like I say about everything concerning the breeding of beagles, noone has all the answers. What works for one person may be a total disaster for someone else.

Every breeding begins as a Hypothesis if you will. The Scientific Method can be applied(in a sense) to breeding.
1. Choose and define the phenomenon that you want to figure out and explain. (proven cross)
2. Collect information (data) about this phenomena by going where the phenomena occur and making observations. Or, try to replicate this phenomena by means of a test (breeding) under controlled conditions that eliminates interference's from environmental conditions.
3. After collecting a lot of data, look for patterns in the data. Attempt to explain these patterns by making a provisional explanation, called a hypothesis. (expose the offspring to consistent training and don't "cherry pick" for results)
4. Test the hypothesis by collecting more data to see if the hypothesis continues to show the assumed pattern.(Repeat the breeding) If the data does not support the hypothesis, it must be changed, or rejected in favor of a better one. In collecting data, one must NOT ignore data that contradicts the hypothesis in favor of only supportive data(cherry picking). If a refined hypothesis survives all attacks on it and is the best existing explanation for a particular phenomenon, it is then elevated to the status of a theory.
A theory is subject to modification and even rejection if there is overwhelming evidence that disproves it and/or supports another, better theory. Therefore, a theory is not an eternal or perpetual truth.

The last sentence says it all. Nothing in the world of breeding beagles is eternal or perpetual truth. There are too many factors like genetics, nourishment, socialization, training, environment, and the biggest factor is human involvement. So basically it is my theory that you can take all the information that I, or anyone else give you, and flush it down the tiolet. Good luck and remember that no matter how you breed, enjoyment is the ultimate goal.

After reading your college paper sounds boring and bs !

It's all BS! That's the point. You see everyone, littlewoody probably didn't even understand what I stated and offered a totally ignorant comment that happened to be correct(unbeknownst to him). The provervial blind squirrel finding a nut, just like breeding a good beagle.

I agree with Pine Lakes in that there is absolutely no SCIENCE to back anyone who makes the claim they know how to breed dogs or anything else for that matter. YES the act of breeding may be known and the theory of what may be the outcome may be in mind BUT to be able to replicate the exact results of a superior animal even the majority of time much less each and every time is ZERO. There are those who have had success in the eyes of the general public from the good ones they have produced but how about putting the numbers of good as opposed to the bad resulting from their breeding or even that exact very same cross. I'd venture to say the numbers of those that didn't make the grade, far, far outweigh the handful of superior ones or even above average ones that did. We then get into the question of what makes an above average or superior hound and by what measures they are judged? It's ALL BS and subjective and that is why there is NO one out there packing a PHD in animal breeding. Yes, there are folks with them in genetics but that is THEORY there is only but one tried and true science when it comes to reproducing one's likeness and it is called CLONEING. The breeding of any two animals is nothing more than pulling the lever on a one armed bandit. Around and around the apples, oranges and cherries go and where they will stop nobody knows. Pull the lever on that very same one arm bandit forever if you like and you still may never hit the jackpot but you may just get back enough to continue putting your time and effort into that one or two individuals. Here's one other thought what do you suppose would be the case if, lets say Ole Ranger Dan was cloned but the owner never put him in a single trial and only rabbit hunted him. How good of a dog would that clone be in the eyes of the general public?

[S.R.Patch]

But what if every so often the machine falls open and you can take out a apple or a orange and put in another cherry, would you rather play that machine or the one with an even mix? odds/percentages?

[Pine Lakes]

But what if every so often the machine falls open and you can take out a apple or a orange and put in another cherry, would you rather play that machine or the one with an even mix? odds/percentages?

Good point S.R.. There are certainly dogs(cherries) that reproduce better than most. My point is that only "comes to light" through experimentation. Noone knows if a dog is a good reproducer by just looking at the dog and its ancestory. It must be bred and bred to different mates to make that determination. I'm sure you've seen a successful cross made. Then when those mates were mated to different dogs the results were less than desirable.

I apologize to the original poster for steering this coversation off of its original intent. I guess to some up what I'm saying is you can find someone who has been successful in line breeding, inbreeding, and outcrossing, but there is noone that has a magic ball. It's all trial and error in my opinion, but certainly an enjoyable conversation.

[LR Patch]

How many of U GUYS that R downing line-breeding or even in-breeding have done it multiple time or ever ? I'd say not many, most R using comments from billybob that heard it from jeffroe and so on.
I know and have read post from several that have posted that say they never breed they buy pups from other , that being said how can u have a opion or 1st hand info that this.

[Lone Pine Beagles]

What do these dogs have in common??

Beaver Creeks Blue Max
Eyer's Jerico
Green Bay Eli
Most Birch Lake hounds
Most Meachum hounds
Most Branko hounds
Farrier's Wrangler
Most Lake Ogemaw hounds

check out their pedigrees on beaglefieldtrials.com

[steve w]

What do these dogs have in common??

Beaver Creeks Blue Max
Eyer's Jerico
Green Bay Eli
Most Birch Lake hounds
Most Meachum hounds
Most Branko hounds
Farrier's Wrangler
Most Lake Ogemaw hounds

check out their pedigrees on beaglefieldtrials.com

Looks like line breeding to me.
But the thing I really want to know is how did we ever end up with all our different breeds of dogs if we can't even agree how to breed a better one?

[Newt]

:[/quote]
Looks like line breeding to me.
But the thing I really want to know is how did we ever end up with all our different breeds of dogs if we can't even agree how to breed a better one?[/quote]

They were establised prior to the internet. Breeders didn't know they were doing it wrong, so they weren't handicapped by the "'Flavor of the Month" theory.
Not every breeder reads this board so they stay clear of thought.

[Mapel Valley Kennels LLC.]

Actually what I understand about breeding comes from watching my dad bred reg cattle. But honestly knowing the art of breeding is knowing what makes a woman tick . I actually know little of eiether. Wish it was so easy. Or do we?

[bill (flint river )]

Actually what I understand about breeding comes from watching my dad bred reg cattle. But honestly knowing the art of breeding is knowing what makes a woman tick . I actually know little of eiether. Wish it was so easy. Or do we?

that's were branko got all his experience from is cattle.