Berea? How did the 15" Males End Up Today?

[Tim H]

I posted this on the espo board and Jamie gave the same response to me that he just gave to flyboyc141. The suggestion he is giving is that if you don't agree with him then you should get out of beagling. I believe there are things that can be done to eliminate the "perception" of buddy judging. By suggesting that there is a "perception" of buddy judging, Jamie would prefer that I just leave the sport. I would simply say that if you don't believe there is a "perception" of buddy judging going on then you are just ignoring the obvious and it will never improve.

Here is what I posted on the espo board:

Look at these numbers from a recent trial and draw your own conclusions.

135 Total Entries
20 Possible Places ( 1st-NBQ X 4 classes)
11 of the places were taken by judges or officers in the Association.
4 Possible 1st places 4 Judges Place 1st
4 Possible 2nd places 3 Judges or Officers Place 2nd
4 Possible 3rd places 2 Judges or Officers Place 3rd

Can you prove buddy judging occurs? Absolutly not, this all may just be coincidence. Better than 50% of all possible places were taken by judges or officers, 100% of all possible 1st places were taken by judges, 75% of all possible 2nd places were taken by judges or officers. Maybe they just had the best dogs there out of the 135 that were put on the ground.

This is the problem that the AKC needs to face. Looking at these results, what is the likelyhood that you would show up at one of these trials if you know there are going to be judges and officers running that day against your dog? People more often base their decisions on perception than they do on hard facts. The perception here is obvious but it doesn't make it a fact.

The truth is, people aren't looking for someone to prove there is buddy judging going on. Instead, the AKC needs to prove it is not going on, then I think you will see at least the perception of integrity and an increase in entries.

[JIMMIE ABSHIRE]

You may want to recit your bible verse over and over and breath deep .
As you say things look flip floppy at times , but i dont buy into your therory ..... I was told you dont even own a dog , would this be correct?
I by no means am not saying it never happens ,but midwest guys are pretty serious about these trials . If you fill as though you have been gutted did you ask why? They will tell ya why you got picked up . i will normally ask "just wanna know why ". I dont think you know this tim.All the guys that judge here in ky got some pretty darn nice dogs . Dont you think even though they judge ,they should not win? It is a thankless job win lose or draw , i will stand behind them .just my thoughts

[Ohiohntr]

I have never entered a dog into a trial and I will give you my perception given that I hope to enter a few in the near future.

I would say that the judges know what to look for in a dog when selecting which dogs in a kennel are "field trial material" and have all of the right stuff. Similar to how a good coach and pick out the "Star Athlete" just by watching them play about any sport, they are usually good at everything they do.

My question from an outside perspective would be..... "Did you file a protest?"......Nope....."Then you must have know which dog was the better dog that day, drop it."

You would have to have a real love of the sport to drive out of state just to judge a pack of dogs at what I assume is minimal pay...if any.

[Tim H]

JIMMIE ABSHIRE,
1) Having a civil discussion when there are differing views doesn't mean that people aren't living peaceably. I still have the latitude to disagree with someone.

2) I am not giving a "theory" I have posted factual numbers and left it to others to draw their own conclusion.

3) I would like the name of the person who told you that I don't own a dog.

4) Your comment that "I by no means am not saying it never happens" implys that you believe it does happen and yet when I say that this "perception" exists you "don't buy into my theory."

5) You know nothing about me and yet you want to suggest what you "don't think I know".

You want to be loyal to your buddies in KY and that is a good quality. However, if you are going to address me on a personal level then you should know something about me and not just guess.

[S.Fetty]

Flyboyc141:

And if the other placing hounds owners weren't judges or officers, then the judges must have known the owners, owned dogs of the same bloodline or maybe even complimented the dog sometime in the past!


Somehow or another, there is some cheating going on.

Please review the participants again:

13" Female Judges
Mike Powers - did not place a dog
Eddie Thimpson - did not place a dog

15" Female Judges
Brian Johnson - did not place a dog
Kurt Folger - did not place a dog

15" Male Judges
Jerry Simpson - no place
Brad Johnson - no place

13" Male Judges
Brandon Hill - no place
Brian Thomas - no place

Never mind, why even bother!!!!!!!!

[Jamie Rice]

Tim,

You and I have went around and around on this. But let me correct you on one thing. I could care less whether you or anyone else agrees with me or not. My suggestion is find the positive in something rather than continuing to dwell upon the negative day in and day out. An old preacher suggested the same to me as he read verses from his Bible.

All I'm stating is if you can not find the positive in something then move on. Whether you and I agree on something has nothing to do with it. Because quite honest I don't think I'd agree with you on anything no matter what it may be. Furthermore someone whom continues to complain makes themself look just as bad as those they continue to criticize. In addition I remember somewhere on one of these boards a guy stating he could care less what goes on in the Midwest Association because he no longer trials in. However it's obvious he lied and backslid because he continues to follow it with a close eye. Else he wouldn't be criticizing it continuously and else he wouldn't be posting on an SPO board. SPO in which he doesn't compete in!

I gave you and anyone else the opportunity to come to one of the MWBGA annual meetings and voice your concerns. Furthermore I suggested you state your ideas to everyone there so more people could hear them rather than only those on the internet(many of which Midwest members don't have.) and then the association could vote on them in a diplomatic way. But in doing so I did tell you that most would probably laugh you out of the building as your suggestions were somewhat ludicris in my and my opinion only.

I can only guess you felt the same way in the long run else you'd took the opportunity to make them known to the association as a whole rather than the minority who have the internet. However I have yet to see you at any of the 6 meetings in the last two years. Quite frankly I have yet to see you at any of our trials in the last 10 years as well. But maybe you're just flying low on the radar or don't run one of the three classes that I do. Nevertheless I would have to question the testicular fortitude of someone whom cries on the internet, but yet can't confront those he criticizes face to face. And furthermore the worthyness of those who don't attend, but yet can tell you all that goes on.

You have stated several times that every time someone says something bad about the Midwest I'm there to defend them. When I think you're full of crap I'm darn well going to defend them. Furthermore when you try to beat around the bush as you always do and try to insinuate someone cheated... moreso when it involves myself or a friend of mine I darn well am going to call you out. If someone called you out and I thought you were in the right I'd stand beside you too, then again we're not friends and we'll never be. But I'm sure you won't lose any sleep over that, Lord knows I darn well am not.

Were you or flyboywhomevertheheck at this trial? NO! Therefore you have no right to state what or whatnot. You're simply nothing more than being a keyboard judge as you have for the last year and half. One whom obvious hasn't a clue! Does crookedness go on, heck yeah it goes on from time to time. Never once have I ever stated it doesn't. Like you said it goes on in all registries, but yet the only dang one you wish to dwell upon is AKC... AKC should do this. AKC should do that. The funny thing if it went on as much as you and your anonymous buddies state then clubs wouldn't be drawing 135 and more entries.

You know you may be right AKC needs to do something. THEY NEED TO SEND OUT BOXES OF CLEANEX TISSUES TO EVERYONE THAT REGISTERS A DOG. That way guys like you will have something to wipe your eyes out with when you cry, cry, cry.

I can't speak for every single dog owned by a judge who places and wins. But the fact I and many amongst them have placed our dogs from Arkansas to West Virginia. From Kentucky to New York and most points in between. If that's not good enough to prove the quality of our dogs as far as I'm concerned you can kiss where the sun don't shine. You know one big time breeder from up north told me if people aren't talking about you(whether it be positive or negative) then you must not be doing something right. Maybe there's some weight to that.

5) You know nothing about me and yet you want to suggest what you "don't think I know".

You didn't know anything about someone on here, but yet you judged him because he complimented someone's dog. What makes it right for you and not for someone else? You know nevermind!

You've been weighed. You've been calculated. And you've been found to be lacking. Lacking what is the question!

However I will end this on a positive note... Best of luck to you in UKC or whatever you run. I have a feeling you need it!

[Tim H]

As usually is the case with you Jamie. If the truth doesn't work for you, you will resort to personal attacks and in this case, lies that you know are lies.

You are suggesting that I have not attended trials at the Mid-West in the last 10 years.

Your the record keeper for the Mid-West so tell me, who owned and handled the dog that was the 2nd highest scoring 15" male in the Mid-West HOY in 2004. That would be in the last 10 years, wouldn't it.

So you aren't above deception in an attempt to discredit someone who disagrees with you.

I will continue to give my opinion on improvements that I think could be made in the AKC,UKC,NKC or any other registry as long as I think improvement can be made.

As far as me needing you to wish me luck in the UKC, in the past few months I have entered my dog in 3 hunts, he WON the hunt this last weekend, he WON his class on the bench, he has also WON best male on the bench. Keep your luck, I'll take quality anytime.

I'll not respond to anymore PERSONAL attacks but I will respond to the issue if it remains civil.

[JIMMIE ABSHIRE]

TIM , MAN IF YOU WANT TO PUSH BUTTONS I AM THE RIGHT PERSON ..
AS A PROFESSIONAL GM DEALERSHIP EMPLOYEE 20PLUS YEARS . WE DO HAVE A NAME FOR YOUR KIND. IN A SHORT TERM ITS CALLED A PUNK . FOR LACK OF A BETTER PHRASE. ALL MY LIFE I HAVE LISTENED TO YOUR TYPE . I GOT SCREWED ---YOUR CHEATING . SO FORTH AND SO ON . AINT NOBODY WANTING REDTICK JR TO STIR IT UP .THINGS ARE WHAT THINGS ARE . WHY DONT YOU GET OVER IT AND MOVE ON , AS FAR AS TAKING CARE OF MY KY BUDDIES UR RIGHT I WILL . IF YOU CANT WIN AT THE MIDWEST I AM SURE SOME OF MY KY BUDDIES GOT SOME TO SELL YOU . NEGATIVE PEOPLE SUCK

[Tim H]

JIMMIE ABSHIRE,

I am still waiting for the name of the person who told you that I don't own a dog.

Read all of my posts. You will never see one that says "I GOT SCREWED ---YOUR CHEATING "

Sometimes to accomplish "positive things" you have to eliminate "negative things". Everyone who is now attacking me has admitted that buddy judging occurs and yet if I state that this issue should be address the attack dogs come out. Explain that.

[Jamie Rice]

Tim,

Where did I lie. Everything I stated about giving you an opportunity to say this or that is true. As for the trials, I haven't seen you at a trial in the last ten years. Have you seen me? You are correc though, now that I think of it you did get something in some qualifier. Sorry if I forgot, but while I may have been record keeper for the past five years I don't follow qualifiers as I don't run in them. Thus reason I probably didn't see you.

As Larry The Cable Guy says, "Git R' Done". Well brotha I get her done where the big boys play, licensed trials, not some qualifier that barely has 1 or 2 dogs entered 75% of the time. But as the record keeper I'll go back to see if there was 27, 17, 56, and 35 entries in some of those classes you placed or perhaps whom in if you feel you need validation.

As far as you placing and winning in UKC, by all means let me be the first to congratulate you. I mean no offense whatsoever to any of you UKC guys as I've ran with many of you and think you have good dogs. But when I take into consider a friend whom has a UKC Grand Champion and for 4 of those wins he didn't even have to run against someone, Tim your UKC placements hold little value to me.

As for me personally attacking you? How did I personally attack you. Nevertheless you have a lot of nerve to state anyone personally attacked you, when five to six months ago whatever it may be you personally attacked someone whom you haven't the foggiest idea bout just because they told a guy he had a nice dog and the dog would probably finish. What's that word I'm looking for?

OH YEAH!

HYPOCRITE.

Jimmie, my friend, you said it I didn't.

[Tim H]

Again with the deception Jamie. I never personally attacked anyone. I stated facts that were proven true.

To clarify something else since you want to be selective about what trials count and what ones don't. In addition to all the other accomplishments my dog has had he was indeed in 3 LICENSED trials in the MID-WEST and made it to the WINNERS pack in the first one he was in, can we count those or are they not valid since YOU weren't there? The UKC has some very good dogs in it and I wouldn't discount that just so you can get a personal dig in on me. If you don't think my dog can perform then just say it and stop bringing down the dogs he has competed against and beat.

Have you ever even seen my dog, let alone seen him run?

You can dislike me all you want but don't try to discredit my dog and those he has run against just because you don't like me.

Again let's stick to the issue.

[JIMMIE ABSHIRE]

MAYBE HE GOT BEAT UP IN SCHOOL A LOT WHO KNOWS OR CARES . BUT IF YOU GOT TO A MIDWEST TRIAL AND SPOUT OFF YOUR FACTS , CHANCES ARE THAT WILL BE A MISTAKE .... OH YEA DORTHY YOU AINT IN KANSAS ANYMORE ...... MOVE ON MY FRIEND ITS CALLED LIFE .

[Tim H]

JIMMIE ABSHIRE

I am still waiting for the name of the person who told you that I don't own a dog.

[Jamie Rice]

By all means, I'm glad that you have found a format you can compete in. Hooray, hooray, hooray... maybe now that you actually won and had some of that home field advantage you will finally shut the heck up with the numerous accusations and ludicrity you continue to go on and on about. You and Dave Haugh must been kin. I have held my tongue for the last few months on much of the idiotic stuff you have stated in regards to SPO and AKC, for the simple fact I figured it was a waste of time to even acknowledge you. Guess I should have followed suit here as well, but enough is enough.

I haven't discredited the dogs that have won and placed in UKC whatsoever. Fact of the matter, I complimented many of them by stating I thought the ones I ran with were good dogs. I just don't agree with the rules they run under and the way they earn their titles. The same can be said for ARHA as well. However you won't see me continue to criticize them week in and week out. Instead I choose not to run them and to not comment on them(until now that is.) Furthermore in regards to my friend's hound. It may or may not be good. I haven't seen him run. My only thoughts were when a dog can obtain a championship by not having to run against anyone then what value is the championship title in the long run.

As for taking digs at anyone... You have taken several digs at Midwest judges and the dogs they've placed for the last two years. No you may have not specifically stated they cheated or didn't deserve this or that, but you most folks have the common sense to know when someone is beating around the bush or insinuating crap. Do you really think guys are so dumb they can realize what you're getting at? As far as deception... You're deceiving yourself if you honestly think, stating someone probably wouldn't be objective or without bias just because they complimented someone's dog, is anything more than a personal attack.

As for your question. No I haven't seen your dog run and given the fact you no longer run AKC or care whatsoever about the Midwest Association I doubt I'll probably ever see him. Same goes with you seeing the majority of dogs owned by the judges that placed hounds in the trial this weekend. All I'm saying is how can you form an opinion on something when you didn't see it with your own eyes. Heck I remember you complimenting one of those winning dogs a few weeks ago. Now you're stating there may be something fishy there just because his owner was a judge? Or is that dog and judge excluded because you personally think it's worthy?

Keep your luck, I'll take quality anytime.

In closing as for the not seeing one another, while you rely back on the fact you got 2nd runner up in a hound of the year class that for the most part was decided in classes of less than 10 dogs, some of which that only had 2 to 3. Now on the other hand these dogs placed and won this weekend whom were owned by judges, continue to place in the licensed trials you criticize win in classes which are 10 to 30 times more entries are in. While not every single dog in these large classes are of the quality you and I may personally like... I will state when you only have 5 to 6 entries and those dogs never run in a licensed trial or can't even make it out of the first series I do question their quality. I guess yours could be excluding since he did make the winners pack a few times. By the way why did you stop running him in licensed trials if he was making the winners pack? Because you felt cheated or because he was beaten by better dogs and you couldn't get over that?

Indeed there are many things to take into consideration as some of those whom run qualifiers can't get off for licensed trials, but when it comes to big males that's a bigtime copout. Since fact is 99.9% of qualifiers are ran on the weekends as are licensed 15" males class. Qualifiers are a great way to get newbies into the sport, so says some, but fact of the matters most of these guys whether newbs or oldies... if they think they have what it takes they run licensed trials. For the simple fact they know in the long run placing 1st in a class of 5 or 6 fails miserably compared to a dog that placed NBQ in a class of 50 to 70.

We can continue to go on and on about this if you'd like, but what good is it doing? All people are seeing is one man who wants to throw blame and another whom is defending himself and his friends.

[billi]

It seems to me that most folks that go all the time see that it would benefit the sport and themselves if they would become a judge. We all realize that the judging responsiblity is very strenuous in all divisions. I have shown and judged some in quarter horse shows for many years and it isnt any different with some complaining. As long as there is a human element involved you can bet some will cheat. I always used this..EITHER GET IN OR GET OUT..I have to agree with the think of the positives and try to go and have fun...on top of that why wouldnt you try to be a judge or a member that does something other that complain..The quarter horse people did one thing and that is the judge has to live several hundred miles away..but thats a joke l drove 300 miles one time just to go to a show because i new the judge....We got some points..lol