question on dog hunt style
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jumpmaster
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re
Bob, I see your point, and I dont disagree with you being able to train pups from hare hounds, to bust brush for cottontails, but I think if you breed two dogs that run trails looking for scent, instead of busting briars, most of your pups will inherit this hunting trait. I'm not saying you wont get any that hunt briars, but a high percentage wont. Just my opinion.
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Robert W. Mccoy Jr
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HatterasBob
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Jumpmaster,
You missed my point. Running trails looking for scent is a learned response to the type of hunting the dog was trained on, not a genetic trait that is passed on. That is my point. That same dog would bust brush if he had been trained on cottontails, but it wasn't and he may now be too old and set in his ways to learn. At least that has been my experience.
Back in the fifties, the AKC cottontail Beagle became a "Walkie Talkie". It was almost death to the registered hunting beagle. My father switched from AKC dogs to grade dogs in 1965. I bought my first AKC beagle in 2001. She was a 18 month full Branko trail walker. After being shown where the rabbits live, she became a super cottontail hound, but that is the exception. She died this fall from liver failure (too much of this in beagles) and will be missed. The northern beagles retain the genes to pursue with intent to catch while the AKC headed toward brace. I suspect that if you go back 10-20 years in the pedigrees of the big name cottontail blood lines you will find hare hounds abound. This past spring I breed this Branko bitch to a well breed trail walking scent hound, exactly as described above. I kept all 3 bitches. The little one is an outstanding hard hunting jump dog with a correct mouth. The big gyp is a hard hunt good jump dog with speed. The third acts like a pup still, but does hunt hard but is in an out. The big male pup is in KY doing very well. Another male pup is in PA doing very well. All 5 may end up being keepers. The breeding on these pups is 31% Ali-Baba and 15% Blue Ninja.
I'm not saying that if you breed 2 hard hunters you won't get hard hunters. I'm saying don't turn your back on scent dogs because that is what they were trained to do. If they had been trained on cottontail they would be a completely different dog. Personally, I think all beagles should be started on cottontails then switched to hare, but if you live up north that not an option. JMHO
You missed my point. Running trails looking for scent is a learned response to the type of hunting the dog was trained on, not a genetic trait that is passed on. That is my point. That same dog would bust brush if he had been trained on cottontails, but it wasn't and he may now be too old and set in his ways to learn. At least that has been my experience.
Back in the fifties, the AKC cottontail Beagle became a "Walkie Talkie". It was almost death to the registered hunting beagle. My father switched from AKC dogs to grade dogs in 1965. I bought my first AKC beagle in 2001. She was a 18 month full Branko trail walker. After being shown where the rabbits live, she became a super cottontail hound, but that is the exception. She died this fall from liver failure (too much of this in beagles) and will be missed. The northern beagles retain the genes to pursue with intent to catch while the AKC headed toward brace. I suspect that if you go back 10-20 years in the pedigrees of the big name cottontail blood lines you will find hare hounds abound. This past spring I breed this Branko bitch to a well breed trail walking scent hound, exactly as described above. I kept all 3 bitches. The little one is an outstanding hard hunting jump dog with a correct mouth. The big gyp is a hard hunt good jump dog with speed. The third acts like a pup still, but does hunt hard but is in an out. The big male pup is in KY doing very well. Another male pup is in PA doing very well. All 5 may end up being keepers. The breeding on these pups is 31% Ali-Baba and 15% Blue Ninja.
I'm not saying that if you breed 2 hard hunters you won't get hard hunters. I'm saying don't turn your back on scent dogs because that is what they were trained to do. If they had been trained on cottontail they would be a completely different dog. Personally, I think all beagles should be started on cottontails then switched to hare, but if you live up north that not an option. JMHO
Mr. Bob
Here in Ms. we don't have hare only swamp rabbits and cotton tails rabbits so please explain to me how it is that I've bought hare breed pups that have never seen or smelled a hare only the above rabbits and they don't hunt brush unless they smell scent on the trail.They will do a small amount of hunting in the open woods,but not the really thick stuff where the cotton tails or swamp rabbits call home.They will run through the thick stuff if they are on the chase though. Hunting trails is a inborn trait with SOME of hare breed hounds because the three rabbits(cotton tail;hare;swamper)occupy different terrains; they like different types of cover; they even run different when chase. John Watson
Here in Ms. we don't have hare only swamp rabbits and cotton tails rabbits so please explain to me how it is that I've bought hare breed pups that have never seen or smelled a hare only the above rabbits and they don't hunt brush unless they smell scent on the trail.They will do a small amount of hunting in the open woods,but not the really thick stuff where the cotton tails or swamp rabbits call home.They will run through the thick stuff if they are on the chase though. Hunting trails is a inborn trait with SOME of hare breed hounds because the three rabbits(cotton tail;hare;swamper)occupy different terrains; they like different types of cover; they even run different when chase. John Watson
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JIMMIE ABSHIRE
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I think dogs will run what they shown to run . That is our job . I also think hare hounds are born to run hare but here in the south that is not a option. We define dogs as ruff . Why are they ? I beleive short of a handling blunder they are made to run what we want 
Old school Northway . Full Throttle no Bottle.
Bob: "Running trails looking for scent is a learned response to the type of hunting the dog was trained on, not a genetic trait that is passed on. That is my point."
That has not been my experience at all. You in an earlier post indicated that hunting hare required a dog that ranges and hunts for tracks. Whereas further south it requires a dog that hunts thick briars, honeysuckle, and other cover. If brace trialers changed the instincts of their beagles over several generations then it stands to reason that hare hunters have also bred to obtain the traits that are most successful in their area. I have bought several hare bred pups,the last couple of years, from breeders who have had a great deal of success. In addition I bought three adult dogs of the same line. All the adult dogs were bred and raised in the south. All but one had an aversion to getting into the thick stuff. They would get into the roungh if the rabbit was up but would much rather look for old tracks in a beaten path. One bitch was an outstanding hound and would jump her share of rabbits but she did it by winding them from outside the cover then jumping them.
I agree some of the hare bred dogs do get into cover after a training period but it doesn't seem to be a natural response.
However the worst trait they have, by far, IMO, is the majority of them don't care if they ever see their owner again, after the tail gate has dropped. I think that is the reason that electronic devices are so popular. My recomendation, if you are going to use hare bred dogs, by all means invest in a shocking collar.
That has not been my experience at all. You in an earlier post indicated that hunting hare required a dog that ranges and hunts for tracks. Whereas further south it requires a dog that hunts thick briars, honeysuckle, and other cover. If brace trialers changed the instincts of their beagles over several generations then it stands to reason that hare hunters have also bred to obtain the traits that are most successful in their area. I have bought several hare bred pups,the last couple of years, from breeders who have had a great deal of success. In addition I bought three adult dogs of the same line. All the adult dogs were bred and raised in the south. All but one had an aversion to getting into the thick stuff. They would get into the roungh if the rabbit was up but would much rather look for old tracks in a beaten path. One bitch was an outstanding hound and would jump her share of rabbits but she did it by winding them from outside the cover then jumping them.
I agree some of the hare bred dogs do get into cover after a training period but it doesn't seem to be a natural response.
However the worst trait they have, by far, IMO, is the majority of them don't care if they ever see their owner again, after the tail gate has dropped. I think that is the reason that electronic devices are so popular. My recomendation, if you are going to use hare bred dogs, by all means invest in a shocking collar.
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HatterasBob
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crewchf,
Walkie Talkies are brace hounds. Take a step and bark 3 times, take another step and bark 3 more times.
Gus,
Again, I believe hunting with you is a learned trait. It comes from training. I've had serveral dogs that wouldn't hunt with me. I had cottontail breed grade dogs that were the worst. I screwed them up by leting them run on their own, without me and at night. So when we went hunting they hunted alone. I think running in pens has alot to do with this also. It is hard to break but it can be done.
John,
I can't explain it. I've never seen it. With the way I start pups it has not been a problem. Maybe I've hit on a secret for starting hare pups on cottontails. It works for me, but it starts arguments on these boards. I start pups on San Juans at 10 weeks old. Usually by 12 weeks I have running pups that can circle rabbits, and they ALL have outstanding hunt. Some have been outstanding jump dogs. Maybe I've been lucky. The hare breeding I'm using is: Heli-Prop, Ali-Baba, Top Dog, Blue Ninja, Haunted Hill Shaker, Jack of All Trades all up close.
I'll be placing several of my pups in KY to run in the mid-west circuit, so in a year or 2 we'll know if I'm right.
Walkie Talkies are brace hounds. Take a step and bark 3 times, take another step and bark 3 more times.
Gus,
Again, I believe hunting with you is a learned trait. It comes from training. I've had serveral dogs that wouldn't hunt with me. I had cottontail breed grade dogs that were the worst. I screwed them up by leting them run on their own, without me and at night. So when we went hunting they hunted alone. I think running in pens has alot to do with this also. It is hard to break but it can be done.
John,
I can't explain it. I've never seen it. With the way I start pups it has not been a problem. Maybe I've hit on a secret for starting hare pups on cottontails. It works for me, but it starts arguments on these boards. I start pups on San Juans at 10 weeks old. Usually by 12 weeks I have running pups that can circle rabbits, and they ALL have outstanding hunt. Some have been outstanding jump dogs. Maybe I've been lucky. The hare breeding I'm using is: Heli-Prop, Ali-Baba, Top Dog, Blue Ninja, Haunted Hill Shaker, Jack of All Trades all up close.
I'll be placing several of my pups in KY to run in the mid-west circuit, so in a year or 2 we'll know if I'm right.
Bob,
Bob,
You were actually the man who turned me onto the litter of (IFC SPEEDY SPORT x IFC THREEJAYS JACK SMOKEY) and i thank you for it...
Anyways, Deacon was purchase and brought here to WV when he was only 10 weeks old. He has now been raised on cottontail alone... He is being trained right along side other dogs and the same as others in the past here... He huges big (always checks back, but real wide, back and forth like a bird dog, covers a ton of ground) but he isn't always the type hound that digs in the brush unless he smells something. With this being said, he stays busy, jumps his fair share, and will flat run the bawls off a rabbit... In all honesty, $1000 wouldn't touch this hound at 1.5 years old...
The only thing different between him and the rest of the dogs are that they come from more dominate cottontail lines....
My point is that BREEDING does play a big part....
You were actually the man who turned me onto the litter of (IFC SPEEDY SPORT x IFC THREEJAYS JACK SMOKEY) and i thank you for it...
Anyways, Deacon was purchase and brought here to WV when he was only 10 weeks old. He has now been raised on cottontail alone... He is being trained right along side other dogs and the same as others in the past here... He huges big (always checks back, but real wide, back and forth like a bird dog, covers a ton of ground) but he isn't always the type hound that digs in the brush unless he smells something. With this being said, he stays busy, jumps his fair share, and will flat run the bawls off a rabbit... In all honesty, $1000 wouldn't touch this hound at 1.5 years old...
The only thing different between him and the rest of the dogs are that they come from more dominate cottontail lines....
My point is that BREEDING does play a big part....
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HatterasBob
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Jack,
I knew you would like that pup. You were lucky to get it. Everyone now wants a Sport pup and they are hard to come by. I've made the trip to NY 4 times and gotten 12 pups.
My degree is in Zoology and I was a student of Genetics, so I know breeding plays a big part in the make up of a hound. My point is that much of the bad rap (not hunting & not handling) the hare hounds receive is a result of training and running enclosures, and not genes. That's it!
I wonder what the rest of Deacon's litter is like. I know Steve Church had some, but they went big, so he sold them. I do have a Skytop's little bitch that is similiar to how you describe Deacon, but didn't start her.
I got some great ones out of Sport and an Ali-Baba bitch. As soon as she come into heat again she is going back up there.
I knew you would like that pup. You were lucky to get it. Everyone now wants a Sport pup and they are hard to come by. I've made the trip to NY 4 times and gotten 12 pups.
My degree is in Zoology and I was a student of Genetics, so I know breeding plays a big part in the make up of a hound. My point is that much of the bad rap (not hunting & not handling) the hare hounds receive is a result of training and running enclosures, and not genes. That's it!
I wonder what the rest of Deacon's litter is like. I know Steve Church had some, but they went big, so he sold them. I do have a Skytop's little bitch that is similiar to how you describe Deacon, but didn't start her.
I got some great ones out of Sport and an Ali-Baba bitch. As soon as she come into heat again she is going back up there.
Mr.Bob,
The hare breeding I'm using is similar to what your using(Heli-Prop;Jack of all Trades;Round Pond Mr.T ect... I've started these hounds at 5 1/2 months of age on swampers and cotton tails and they will still rather run the trails to find scent than search the thick stuff.In a hunting situation were there are no trails you may have a point about them searching cover because there are no trails,but they will still look for the areas with the least amount of cover.For the most part when running on the training grounds were there are trails and roads the hare breed hounds will travel the roads or trails.I've not taken a gun with me since 2004 when I started getting these hare breed hounds just to see what they were all about and let me tell you alot more beaglers should do the same.Try leaving your gun sometimes and really STUDY your hound to see how many times your hound can bring the rabbit back to you or follow them in aways to see what and were they start searching and you'll learn alot about the hound you love. John Watson
The hare breeding I'm using is similar to what your using(Heli-Prop;Jack of all Trades;Round Pond Mr.T ect... I've started these hounds at 5 1/2 months of age on swampers and cotton tails and they will still rather run the trails to find scent than search the thick stuff.In a hunting situation were there are no trails you may have a point about them searching cover because there are no trails,but they will still look for the areas with the least amount of cover.For the most part when running on the training grounds were there are trails and roads the hare breed hounds will travel the roads or trails.I've not taken a gun with me since 2004 when I started getting these hare breed hounds just to see what they were all about and let me tell you alot more beaglers should do the same.Try leaving your gun sometimes and really STUDY your hound to see how many times your hound can bring the rabbit back to you or follow them in aways to see what and were they start searching and you'll learn alot about the hound you love. John Watson
Hattersbob said-
I would have to disagree. You can train a dog to hunt as you want it to sometimes but hunt has to be bred into the dog. Heres an example 2 people end up with 2 pups out of the same litter that are out of dogs known for hunt. One guy starts his pup#1 at 7 months old and religously fools with the pup and he gets a lot of time in the field. The other guy starts his pup#2 at the same age but takes him out maybe once a month if that or maybe after he's started he sits in the pen for 3 or 4 months till gun season. Both pups showed the same hard hunt at the time they were started. Will both pups have the same kinda hunt when gun season starts? In a lot of cases they will. Ive seen it time and time again. A guy puts a lot of time into a pup#1 and his buddy just does'nt worry that much about it. His pup#1 might be more experienced than pup#2 but the hunt is the same when the gun goes to popping. With that said I don't think it would matter either way if the pups were not bred for hunt. Some people say that all dogs are bred to hunt period and it's all in how they are handled when they are pups. Thats a bunch of $hit! Ive had pups out of certain lines that would not start at all and they had every chance to, and they were out of so called top bloodlines, I have also seen pups that did'nt show any hunt run over the hill and fall in and start running. My question for you is have you ever seen a pup (any pup) that would not start? I'm sure you probably have. Which leads me to another question----HAVE YOU EVER SEEN A PUP THAT HUNTED THAT DID'NT START? I would have to say I have'nt. In my opinion you can train a dog to run anything if it hunts but you can't train a dog to look for anything if it does'nt have the desire to find it. Just my opinion.I agree with most of what you have said, but I believe you have attributed hunt to genes when alot of it is training.
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four seasons
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Food for thought. We know that genetics is a big factor in a dogs size agility, foot and skin , and etc. Wouldn't this factors contribute to wether or not a dog really wanted to get into the thick stuff. I have noticed with the few smaller beagles that I have had they seem to want more of the thick stuff. I am not saying this is wrong or right just a thought. Bottom line is that training, genetics, environment, and personality all influence a dogs hunting ability. Its a compromise!
Run rabbit run!
I think Scot struck the word, DESIRE. I will jump the equation DESIRE + BRAINS = ABILITY. If the dogs with ability have the oppurtunity to educate themselves they will.
IMO hunting STYLE is genetic.
IMO hunting STYLE is genetic.
Desire and the abilities to account for the rabbit.
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jumpmaster
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I am certain that training has a lot to do with the way a dog handles, and just as certain about genetics playing the biggest role in the way a dog hunts. I am not an expert, and I dont have a degree in genetics, but I have bred many different animals, and studied up on the way certain traits are inherited, and I just have to believe that hunt is passed on from a combination of genes from its parents.