WHAT IS GOING ON???!!!

BlueIceBeagles · Post by **BlueIceBeagles** » Fri Mar 10, 2006 2:09 pm

I wouldnt exactly say I'm an ol time Beagler, but I've owned pet Beagles from field lines (pups we bought off hunters) since 1989. I bought my first true hunting Beagle in 1994 and bred my first litter in 2000.
I'd say that from my experiences (and I live in the Noth East - southern NY to be exact) over the past 5-6 years, all of a sudden there is an "explosion" of hounds that have some kind of temperament problem. Usually shyness and shaky nerves (you know the kind of dog that shakes when the wind blows in its direction) and a lot of dog aggression. On tp of that, I've culled my share of hounds who had epilepsy, cherry eye, ect.
WHAT THE HELL IS GOING ON WITH THIS BREED??? Geez, I feel like hunting Beagles are going to hell in a handbasket here! If its not one thing, its another!
I got 6 hounds in my kennel right now. Out of them, only TWO have freindly, outgoing personalities. The others are all shy in varying degrees and two are both shy and dog aggressive.
The ones with the bad temperaments all stem from one bitch. They are all her offspring. I thought I could weed the trait out if I bred her to a male that was friendly, but it didn't work. I have plans to cull those three pups and their mother. I am sick and tired of dealing with them.
Its not just my kennel I've noticed this in - its so many hounds lately! Beagles used to have a reputation for friendliness now 60% of all pet or hunting Beagles I meet are either shy or aloof. Most peopel over here nowadays will tell me they know so and so who has a Beagle and its so scared of everything.
Folks, this is genetics, plain and simple. I raised my pusp in my home and handled them everyday and tried to expose them to kids and adults. Didn't work. But I noticed during socializing those hounds that some got scared along the way because they have very shaky nerves and were easily traumatized. Thats still a genetics problem, guys.
For those of us that have shy hounds, and even for the guys that have nice tempered hounds, we need to be so careful about what we breed and what we breed to. Its easy to ruin the entire breed with one over used hound, or one litter. I think with all the AI and shipping bitches off to be mated, its difficult to assess the temperament of the stud. We could be breeding to a shy hound and not even know it!
In my experience, the nose and the looks of this breed is getting better every generation. But what does that matter if Beagles in general are becoming known as shy or aloof with John Q Public? Its not a reflection of the puppy mills or the BYBs. Think about it, where do the millers and the idiots whop want to breed Fluffy just once get their dogs when their breeding stock runs dry? US. The reputable, die hard breeders. Also consider that I and most others I know in the huntin circuit have very well bred dogs most direct from well known kennels and paid top dollar for.
And speaking of kennels/bloodlines, I find it interesting that my two males that have no shyness whatsoever, even though they are from two completely different bloodlines, are also a different line than the bitch and her pups I have that ARE shy. The bloodline of my shy dogs has popped up in the pedigrees of many of the hounds I personally know who are also shy. And I know lots of us have this bloodline, and we're all linebreeding closely to get out the good traits, but we are also sealing in the BAD traits so tightly, we may never be able to breed them out

I promise I'll get off my soapbox now, and before I go, two things. First, I don't mean to say the breeders here are perpetuating shyness or have shy dogs - so don;t get me wrong, I'm not her pointing fingers. Which leads me to the second thing I wanted to say. I came here mostly to vent becuase now I have to cull more than half my kennel and so many years are down the drain because I thought I could socialize this nonsense out. I'd really be curious to know just how many of you hav enoticed an increase of shy hounds in the past couple years???
God bless!

hounddog · Post by **hounddog** » Fri Mar 10, 2006 2:36 pm

My reply to you my brother is to start over... Now I'm not saying this in a disrespectful (spelling) way but I have had beagles for 20 years and have never had any that were shy and only one that was mean and I bought him. Dogs are just like kids! If you have them, then give them the best you can. That means spending time with them from day one not just going to the pen and putting some food and water in their bowls once a day. I like to keep my pups in the house for the first 8 weeks of their lives. They are learning more in the first year then they will learn their entire life. I think it is in the training and not genetics. Any dog breed will be as you decribed if not handle properly. I own nine beagles right now and all will lick the skin off your face. Kids seem to make a big difference with pups. My Grandkids play with mine on a weekly basis and I really think that helps. Maybe they can relate to each other. Old timers used to say never spoil your hunting dog as it will never hunt for you. Bull............
Love them and they will want to hunt for you.
Best of luck with your dogs, and may God Bless...............

hounddog
Jim Umbarger

s&jkennels · Post by **s&jkennels** » Fri Mar 10, 2006 2:59 pm

Right on Jim!!

show dog · Post by **show dog** » Fri Mar 10, 2006 3:08 pm

Look back through your health history with your shy dogs. I have a 'shy' beagle now. She wasn't until after her second vaccine reaction. There is something going on in the genetics and the reaction to vaccines that may be the problem. Sica reacted to both lepto and rabies. It destroyed her ability to cope with the outside world. She is fine in the bush and with me most of the time. The rest is very selective. Socializing once vaccine damage is done does nothing but aggrevate the nervous system and increase the dog's stress. Look into that! Good luck and stop breeding that line. It only gets worse. Carolyn

Greg H · Post by **Greg H** » Fri Mar 10, 2006 3:16 pm

This should be a concern of everyone who is breeding beagles. In the late 40's and 50's the breeding community almost changed the course of these dogs forever with the walkie-talkie type hounds. They were breeding for the moment and not the future. I see alot of this going on today. Everyone is breeding for speed and more speed and are willing to sacrifice other traits that need to be bred on for the betterment of the breed. I to have noticed personallity problems with some of these steeplechase hounds. Aggression has to be eliminated. These are after all pack animals and there is no room for an over aggressive gene pool.

Some of the shyness you are seeing from your pups could be contributed by the gene pool, but most likely the pups picked up on the mothers behavior when they were young. Much the same way that some dogs will be Thunder shy. If seperated and brought up in different enviroments pups that don't observe this behavior from their mother or other dogs will not be Thunder shy. I do think it would be best to start over, or if you really like the other trait that your bitch is passing on then breed her one more time wean the pups and get rid of her. If they pocess these negative traits then cull the whole litter and start over.

Steve C. · Post by **Steve C.** » Fri Mar 10, 2006 4:43 pm

A lot of this shyness too is the result of breeders who keep and breed too many hounds (I've been close to it myself). The hounds are up on wire where they get very little attention or human contact and the pups get the same treatment at the critical age of 5 to 16 weeks. No question genetics plays a role but I find that most of the damage is done during puppyhood. My very best hounds were produced when I had only a few dogs in the kennel and each one was given all the running and attention it could want. Fortunately I've seen no shyness in the bloodlines I've been working with, but I'll bet a new pair of snowshoes that I would see it if the pups were just left in the kennel til they were old enough to start.

Honey Pot Hounds · Post by **Honey Pot Hounds** » Fri Mar 10, 2006 6:58 pm

I was given a Beagle once (from CH. hunting lines) that was so shy he pooped himself once when my husband went into his kennel to take him for a walk. We had just got him so we tried to wait it out, and wait it out...he never got significantly better. We kept him two years.
Eventually I neutered him and placed him in an woman only pet home. I don't know what his problem was but he was mostly afraid of men so we ran the gamet of theories, for sure.....point being HE WAS NEUTERED and removed from the gene pool. I never bred that dog. Not once. Never even seriously considered it.

Briarhoppers · Post by **Briarhoppers** » Fri Mar 10, 2006 7:12 pm

I think you answered your own question. You said you had a shy dog and yet you still bred her....and her offspring are shy. What is going on? You, is the answer w/ all due respect.
-Pete

Honey Pot Hounds · Post by **Honey Pot Hounds** » Fri Mar 10, 2006 8:32 pm

Guys,
What better time to introduce you to an article written by the infamous Carmen Battaglia on some simple stimulation techniques we can all do quickly and simply on all of our newborn puppies to improve their handling of stress and other performance factors..a short example of the article:

"The U.S. Military in their canine program developed a method that still serves as a guide to what works. In an effort to improve the performance of dogs used for military purposes, a program called "Bio Sensor" was developed. Later, it became known to the public as the "Super Dog" Program. Based on years of research, the military learned that early neurological stimulation exercises could have important and lasting effects. Their studies confirmed that there are specific time periods early in life when neurological stimulation has optimum results. The first period involves a window of time that begins at the third day of life and lasts until the sixteenth day. It is believed that because this interval of time is a period of rapid neurological growth and development, and therefore is of great importance to the individual."

You can read the full text here:http://www.breedingbetterdogs.com/achiever.html

~Cindy

petebeagle · Post by **petebeagle** » Fri Mar 10, 2006 9:22 pm

I have read that article. And yes it makes sense, and it works. Some dogs can't be saved, but i feel that if you interact with them at a young age, the younger the better, they grow up to happy, heathy, and eager to please. Course you have to feed em good. And no, not saying all dogs can be saved.

BlueIceBeagles · Post by **BlueIceBeagles** » Fri Mar 10, 2006 10:42 pm

Briarhoppers: I bred this bitch after talking to more than one well respected Beagler. Most felt she probably lacked socializing from her breeder and that was the cause of it. Shes a great hunting hound and like someone else said about the fad of breeding for speed - this was one super fast hound, too. In all the years I'm hunitn, she was the best and close to perfect in the field. Now that I'm thinking it over, this breed was meant to be a med-upper med speed. They were bred to be somewhat slow & methodical. Not like the walkie talkies, not at all, but not speed demons either.
I don't raise my pups in kennels either. They're in my house 100% of the time until about 6 months, then I have them sleep outside. I handled them every day yet still the pups I kept are very shy. One is being sold tomorrow on a spay/neuter contract and I'm curious to see if he acts like a lunatic away from his mother. Either way, the mother was spayed already and the others are being sold off as pets.

Honey Pot: Would you mind telling me what the bloodline of the shy CH line hunting Beagle you had was? You can PM me with the info if you don't want to post on the boards. I'd be curious to see if there is a connection between certian blodlines or if this is cropping up sporradically.

It was mentioned about the old Walkie Talkie hounds - let me tell you this is what I fear will happen with soem temperament issues we're seeing today. Look at those old Brace hounds from the 60s ... most of us know that if a hound goes back to Pearson Creek 10 generations ago, and there is still some linebreeding going on, those hounds are VERY similar in build to the brace dogs (cross eyed, dwarfed or slightly short front legs, slower speed). Sure they're not as bad as the old brace dogs, but its been 40-50 years and the traits are still there.

BlueIceBeagles · Post by **BlueIceBeagles** » Fri Mar 10, 2006 10:45 pm

BTW, Honey Pot - that article you posted about the Early Neurological Stimulation - I used it on this litter .........

petebeagle · Post by **petebeagle** » Sat Mar 11, 2006 12:45 am

You make a good point Blue. So you know what to do. I like your thoughts, would like to hear on other issues. Reguarding beagles that is.

Take care

Bunny Runner · Post by **Bunny Runner** » Sat Mar 11, 2006 6:17 am

Behavior was best explained to me by my professor as an equation.

Behavior = genetics + experience + environment

Basically, what this tells us is, an animals behavior is equal to all three of these things together. Where one aspect may be predominant, the all play a part.
For example:
Pit bulls have a genetic propensity for agression. Three pups from the same litter can all turn out differently under separate circumstances or they can all turn out the same if kept together. One pup goes to home with 2 other dogs (different breeds) with proper training, socialization, attention, and love. One pup stays with it's mother at the breeder and is not properly trained, lives outside and has little contact with other people. The third one goes to a home where it is used for fighting, but is showered with attention by it owner, has been trained (not obedience).

Pup #1 - is well adjusted, non-aggressive toward other dogs or people.
Pup #2 - is people aggressive due to it's lack of contact with humans, but gets along with the other dogs in it's pack.
Pup#3 - gets along well with most people but is very aggressive toward ALL other animals.

This is just a brief scenario to give the idea of the concept, but it does show that it's not just genetics or experience or environment that shapes an animals behavior.

I feel (IMO) that with all the "breeders" (using the term lightly), willy-nilly breeding for specific traits, the beagle (along with many other breeds) are evolving (not for the better) into a different dog. We are dumbing them down. ANYONE breeding dogs should be very selective about WHAT they are breeding and WHY we are breeding them.

DRamey · Post by **DRamey** » Sat Mar 11, 2006 10:24 am

I have 4 in my kennel now, almost exclusively Northway. 3 of the 4 came here as 6 to 8 week old pups. I have an 8-year old son and a 4-year old daughter. They wallow and roughhouse with the pups until they are grown. No problems. I got a 5-month old that was beginning to become as you describe, somewhat shy. Gave her to them to wallow and wrestle with for a while, problem solved again. Let young'uns play with young'uns and they work a lot of issues out. OR-get Northway hounds then let younguns have 'em. Works like the Honeypot folks describe, but hounds need peoples' hands on them regularly for them to want to be handled.