I went back and read all of my posts so far on this thread. Maybe I'm blind, but I can't see how anyone can misconstrue those posts to be AKC bashing. My focus on each and every post I personally made was breeder integrity, breeder ability, promotion of good hunting lines, and not being limited in vision or by registry. I certainly apologize to anyone who felt personally attacked, or thought I was bashing. My mission is just for us to learn and set high goals for the breed.
For those that are happy with using only hounds from AKC, that's great and I appreciate your input. But, if you are one of those people who feel something is lacking in the choice of hounds registered by AKC, if you look around and are left wanting, it's intended as an encouragement for you to take that step - do that "hard work" we talked about and make a beagle that any hunter would be proud to own. (Remember, the strictly hunters outnumber the strictly trialers by a wide margin. They won't feed a dog in the summertime that can't feed them in the wintertime.)
My message is "breed a better BEAGLE" (not AKC beagle, UKC beagle, NKC beagle, grade beagle) by whatever method one can be successful at, and not to let the presence or absence of a registry keep you from improving the breed. Keep good records and let the registries help you. Be your hounds' own worst critic and eventually you will have done it.
I'm hoping I can take my own advice and not bend to outside pressures.
Pedigrees - How to use them and how far back?
Moderators: Pike Ridge Beagles, Aaron Bartlett
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James Carman
Pedigrees
Every dog in your pups pedigree have some influence on the pup. Obviously the farther away the less influence it has, but have you ever had a breeding of tri color dogs from a line of tri color dogs produce a red pup? That red is back there in the papers somewhere. I have spoken of this before. I hunted with a guy that had a pair of nice looking grade beagles. When bred together they failed to produce any pup that even vaguely resembled a beagle. One had long curley hair and was almost solid black. Even if this man had a 3 generation hand written pedigree, he could not could not have convinced me that his two dogs were true beagles. You better believe that long black curley hair was in the "pedigree".
Bev wrote in the beginning
Or, why not keep track yourself - many "grade" dog breeders have done this for years anyway. Their dogs are not AKC, but they can tell you about every ancestor as far back as you'd need to know. This wouldn't be so hard to do. If you have a 6-year-old bitch in your kennel that you raised from a pup, you could easily have built a 3-generation pedigree yourself and would know all the dogs that have influenced your present line.
snip
I would question that word "Many". Most grade dog breeders I've known and I'm 53 have never read a genetics book and have never done anything but bred best to best.You imply with the starting post that "many" grade dog breeders keep the same type records as most registered breeders in AKC or what ever.That is a giant leap of faith I'll not buy into..Breeding good dogs is hard enough without having to use this sort of voo doo lick and a promise method as a starting point.Most grade dog breeders have never kept written records.Even if it was in their head it is of no value.Their dogs may be world beaters but what the heck is behind it? They do not know and there is no way you'd ever be able to know or reproduce it.The devil is in the details.Recorded written details in a detaled long pedigree that gives the path taken to the end product.
Here is what I think is behind these discussions in large part..The problem is one of type and style aka one's likes in a dog.Some like rough running dogs that over run a check by 20 yds and mill around.Some only care which dog is in the lead when the rabbit is circled.(Yeah that is a real test of the best dog) Some like med speed - high med close line control and check work with no or very few let downs.Some registries have all types and some cater to certain styles of dogs.So be it.
My opinion : A GOOD BEAGLE like Bev wants to breed should be able to win in any type registry - trial.Given that the humans judging were smart enough to write quality rules and are as fair and un biased as the dogs entered !
Hunt6 (David)
Or, why not keep track yourself - many "grade" dog breeders have done this for years anyway. Their dogs are not AKC, but they can tell you about every ancestor as far back as you'd need to know. This wouldn't be so hard to do. If you have a 6-year-old bitch in your kennel that you raised from a pup, you could easily have built a 3-generation pedigree yourself and would know all the dogs that have influenced your present line.
snip
I would question that word "Many". Most grade dog breeders I've known and I'm 53 have never read a genetics book and have never done anything but bred best to best.You imply with the starting post that "many" grade dog breeders keep the same type records as most registered breeders in AKC or what ever.That is a giant leap of faith I'll not buy into..Breeding good dogs is hard enough without having to use this sort of voo doo lick and a promise method as a starting point.Most grade dog breeders have never kept written records.Even if it was in their head it is of no value.Their dogs may be world beaters but what the heck is behind it? They do not know and there is no way you'd ever be able to know or reproduce it.The devil is in the details.Recorded written details in a detaled long pedigree that gives the path taken to the end product.
Here is what I think is behind these discussions in large part..The problem is one of type and style aka one's likes in a dog.Some like rough running dogs that over run a check by 20 yds and mill around.Some only care which dog is in the lead when the rabbit is circled.(Yeah that is a real test of the best dog) Some like med speed - high med close line control and check work with no or very few let downs.Some registries have all types and some cater to certain styles of dogs.So be it.
My opinion : A GOOD BEAGLE like Bev wants to breed should be able to win in any type registry - trial.Given that the humans judging were smart enough to write quality rules and are as fair and un biased as the dogs entered !
Hunt6 (David)
Hunt6. you are correct, I did say many grade breeders. I didn't say "most". I agree with you if you are saying most grade breeders probably don't keep good records. Starting a line from scratch (or reinventing the wheel as Patch calls it) is not for everybody to be sure. If a person can't get comfortable with it and is not prepared mentally and geographically to cull hard for several generations, they are better off utilizing known and registered pedigrees as a foundation base. However, if a person is discontented and up for the challenge, it can be and has been done. There are folks that believe in breeding the best to the best, hybrid vigor, etc. They often voice up when the subject of line-breeding/inbreeding comes around.
Thanks for your input.
Thanks for your input.
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AlabamaSwamper
- Posts: 810
- Joined: Mon Mar 10, 2003 7:06 pm
- Location: Florence, AL
- Contact:
[quote=] Hunt 6 wrote: Some only care which dog is in the lead when the rabbit is circled.(Yeah that is a real test of the best dog) My opinion : A GOOD BEAGLE like Bev wants to breed should be able to win in any type registry - trial.Given that the humans judging were smart enough to write quality rules and are as fair and un biased as the dogs entered ! Hunt6 (David)[/quote]
I couldnt agree more with that paragraph.
I couldnt agree more with that paragraph.
"No stronger bond exist than that between a man and his dog."
Link to RabbitDawg board. (Old Southernbeagles board)
http://www.excoboard.com/exco/index.php?boardid=6643
Link to RabbitDawg board. (Old Southernbeagles board)
http://www.excoboard.com/exco/index.php?boardid=6643
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Beagleman973
- Posts: 184
- Joined: Tue Jan 14, 2003 11:28 am
- Location: Southern Illinois
Well said Hunt6, I couldn't agree with you more!
Another point to ponder, when speaking about pure bred hounds. When you look back into the very beginnings of almost every breed, they began with crossing two separate breeds to come up with a different breed. Once enough of these crosses were made, they were bred back to each other to develope the breed that is today recognized. For the most part, if you look back far enough, there is no such thing as a complete pure breed hound!
With that said, almost all of my hounds are AKC registered for many of the same reasons stated in prior posts. For whatever reason, AKC is more recognized and they do bring higher prices when they are sold. Are they better, not necessarily, just better recognized by the general public.
As far as breeding a grade hound, I faced that dilemna a year or so ago. I have a male that is the best jump dog I have ever owned, he's fast, clean, etc. Truth to tell I think his parents were registered AKC, but papers were never turned in and were lost. I don't know what line he came from, how his grandparents ran, etc. So I chose not to breed him. I bred two registered hounds that I am just as happy with. Maybe I'm blowing a great opportunity to improve my pack.....but I don't have the room to keep an entire litter, and in good conscience couldn't and wouldn't sell someone a pup that I don't have at least some idea of how they will perform. Without the research, you don't have any idea of how they produce, genetic defects, etc.
That's where pedigrees come in handy, you can see the hounds work, talk to people who have seen them run, see what they are producing, health problems they may have, etc. You just can't get that with grade hounds. As someone said, most just breed their best to their buddies best, etc. One thing I would say about grade hounds though, I guarantee there is some at someone's farm, etc that could easily champion out in many different registries. Personally, even if that were so, I still wouldn't breed to it until numerous other breedings were made to see if it was producing, health problems, etc.
Another point to ponder, when speaking about pure bred hounds. When you look back into the very beginnings of almost every breed, they began with crossing two separate breeds to come up with a different breed. Once enough of these crosses were made, they were bred back to each other to develope the breed that is today recognized. For the most part, if you look back far enough, there is no such thing as a complete pure breed hound!
With that said, almost all of my hounds are AKC registered for many of the same reasons stated in prior posts. For whatever reason, AKC is more recognized and they do bring higher prices when they are sold. Are they better, not necessarily, just better recognized by the general public.
As far as breeding a grade hound, I faced that dilemna a year or so ago. I have a male that is the best jump dog I have ever owned, he's fast, clean, etc. Truth to tell I think his parents were registered AKC, but papers were never turned in and were lost. I don't know what line he came from, how his grandparents ran, etc. So I chose not to breed him. I bred two registered hounds that I am just as happy with. Maybe I'm blowing a great opportunity to improve my pack.....but I don't have the room to keep an entire litter, and in good conscience couldn't and wouldn't sell someone a pup that I don't have at least some idea of how they will perform. Without the research, you don't have any idea of how they produce, genetic defects, etc.
That's where pedigrees come in handy, you can see the hounds work, talk to people who have seen them run, see what they are producing, health problems they may have, etc. You just can't get that with grade hounds. As someone said, most just breed their best to their buddies best, etc. One thing I would say about grade hounds though, I guarantee there is some at someone's farm, etc that could easily champion out in many different registries. Personally, even if that were so, I still wouldn't breed to it until numerous other breedings were made to see if it was producing, health problems, etc.
If you can't run with the BIG DOGS stay on the porch!
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AlabamaSwamper
- Posts: 810
- Joined: Mon Mar 10, 2003 7:06 pm
- Location: Florence, AL
- Contact:
Ok Bev, you guys have talked me into going outside AKC if need be. I want to breed the best hounds I can. If the dog is good enough, then why not take the chance. Titles mean squat to me so why do I need to stay within AKC. I prefer ARHA anyway when it comes to trials so I see no problem. If I breed two dogs and folks dont want them because they arent AKC, well, thats their darn loss and someone else will get the pleasure of hunting over them. I aint no puppy mill and dont do this for nobody but myself and those who love to shoot bunnies or hear dogs run. That is the main thing. Well, nuff said here so have a good'un.
"No stronger bond exist than that between a man and his dog."
Link to RabbitDawg board. (Old Southernbeagles board)
http://www.excoboard.com/exco/index.php?boardid=6643
Link to RabbitDawg board. (Old Southernbeagles board)
http://www.excoboard.com/exco/index.php?boardid=6643
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Guest
Re: Pedigrees
James Carman wrote:Every dog in your pups pedigree have some influence on the pup. Obviously the farther away the less influence it has, but have you ever had a breeding of tri color dogs from a line of tri color dogs produce a red pup? That red is back there in the papers somewhere. I have spoken of this before. I hunted with a guy that had a pair of nice looking grade beagles. When bred together they failed to produce any pup that even vaguely resembled a beagle. One had long curley hair and was almost solid black. Even if this man had a 3 generation hand written pedigree, he could not could not have convinced me that his two dogs were true beagles. You better believe that long black curley hair was in the "pedigree".
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Christine
Pedigrees
Sorry that was me above, sent it too soon!
The reason I do not advocate breeding grede dogs as true beagles is because of the above statement. A purebred has to consistently breed true to be considered pure. Six generations is NOT a long time. So if you have a mix that sort of looks like a beagle six generations in the pedigree, I'd still question that the hond was truly pure bred. Because you can breed that grade dog to five more generations of pure bred beagles and still get something coem out that doesn't look like a beagle.
If hunting is your only concern, and all you want to do is have a dog to hunt with and not a particular breed, then go ahead and use that grade dog. It may be doing you a service to breed a grade dog, but its not doing anything for the breed. I don't care if that grade dog is the best oyu ever saw, if you want to improve beagles, take the time, wait for the best dog you can find, then breed your best bitch to that. Theres more than enough pure beagles out there to improve the breed immensely without mixing them with curs. Too often the breed suffers because someone has a hound and breeds a mediocre or poor dog just for the sake of breeding. If that practice stops, you'll see a marked improvement in this already great breed. JMHO.
The reason I do not advocate breeding grede dogs as true beagles is because of the above statement. A purebred has to consistently breed true to be considered pure. Six generations is NOT a long time. So if you have a mix that sort of looks like a beagle six generations in the pedigree, I'd still question that the hond was truly pure bred. Because you can breed that grade dog to five more generations of pure bred beagles and still get something coem out that doesn't look like a beagle.
If hunting is your only concern, and all you want to do is have a dog to hunt with and not a particular breed, then go ahead and use that grade dog. It may be doing you a service to breed a grade dog, but its not doing anything for the breed. I don't care if that grade dog is the best oyu ever saw, if you want to improve beagles, take the time, wait for the best dog you can find, then breed your best bitch to that. Theres more than enough pure beagles out there to improve the breed immensely without mixing them with curs. Too often the breed suffers because someone has a hound and breeds a mediocre or poor dog just for the sake of breeding. If that practice stops, you'll see a marked improvement in this already great breed. JMHO.
Christine, I can appreciate what you're saying. Given the agreement of most that any and all registries can be tainted, that point can be a double-edged sword. Could it not also be true that the breed can suffer because many times a mediocre hound is bred because it is registered and the superior hound is not? That would also be breeding for breeding's sake. I think we see a bunch of that in folks that breed for pets - not so much those that compete in the field and show.
Not all grade hounds are curs. Many strains of beagles out there simply switched registries, or papers were not filed on 1 (one) hound in the family. With my limited time in competition I can probably name a dozen well-known lines that originated from registered stock. Some with show blood in them, too. My idea of the goal in breeding is that the offspring be better than its ancestors. A way to do that with grade breedings is to continually monitor your line, and when that curly tail or terrier ears show up, discontinue breeding them, (that goes for AKC dogs, too) but as long as those pups keep popping out in the beagle standard generation after generation, shouldn't that be proof enough that they are indeed as purebred as any other? Personally, 3 generations of no curly-haired dogs would be incentive for me to continue the line. Six to ten generations of no curly-haired dogs would convince me that I have a purebred beagle, papers ot not.
Just giving a different perspective here.
Not all grade hounds are curs. Many strains of beagles out there simply switched registries, or papers were not filed on 1 (one) hound in the family. With my limited time in competition I can probably name a dozen well-known lines that originated from registered stock. Some with show blood in them, too. My idea of the goal in breeding is that the offspring be better than its ancestors. A way to do that with grade breedings is to continually monitor your line, and when that curly tail or terrier ears show up, discontinue breeding them, (that goes for AKC dogs, too) but as long as those pups keep popping out in the beagle standard generation after generation, shouldn't that be proof enough that they are indeed as purebred as any other? Personally, 3 generations of no curly-haired dogs would be incentive for me to continue the line. Six to ten generations of no curly-haired dogs would convince me that I have a purebred beagle, papers ot not.
Just giving a different perspective here.
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bob huffman
There is a great breed of hound called the Treeing Walker. It was started by the Walker brothers way back when they crossed 2 littermates of the fox strain they were breeding. The pups would tree from this litter and the rest is history. Most working coon hounds that are registered are UKC. They have done a great job with the coon hounds. Their nite hunt field trials have improved the breeds a lot. The Walkers have dominated these field trials and there is one family in particular that has been a leader in that respect. That would be the Finley River strain bred by John Monroe in Ill. He had a dog called FINLEY RIVER CHIEF that just about took over the breed in the 60s and 70s and continues to this day. He was probably one of the most dominant studs in any breed of hound. He was sired by a dog called SHETLERS SONNY BOY. Thank goodness the UKC allowed him to be single registered as he was from grade dogs.
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Guest
Bev posted: Could it not also be true that the breed can suffer because many times a mediocre hound is bred because it is registered and the superior hound is not? That would also be breeding for breeding's sake. I think we see a bunch of that in folks that breed for pets - not so much those that compete in the field and show.
Here's an example: My brother lives in California...He lives in the suberbs...He bought an AKC registered beagle puppy from a PET Store for his daughter. $600.00 Only reason he bought it was because it was a beagle (she fell in love
) and the Store "stressed" AKC registered. Needless to say I guess my brother has more money to spend then I do. 
Anyways after everything's said and done. Note: he doesn't rabbit hunt or field trial....I asked him to get me a copy of her pedigree. Her particular sire was listed throughout the whole pedigree...The guy bred his male to a female took a pup then bred back to him, got more pups and bred back to him again. The sire's sire was a FC and the only FC in the pedigree.... The guy lives in Montana and is a puppy mill in my opinion and sells his pups to pet stores in California ETC ..
This is just an example in reference to breeding for the sake of profit, and breeding mediocre hounds just because they are AKC registered. It happens.. This is one of the downfalls of AKC being so big a registry.
There are so many more poeple out there that only know beagles as PETS...
Here's an example: My brother lives in California...He lives in the suberbs...He bought an AKC registered beagle puppy from a PET Store for his daughter. $600.00 Only reason he bought it was because it was a beagle (she fell in love
) and the Store "stressed" AKC registered. Needless to say I guess my brother has more money to spend then I do. Anyways after everything's said and done. Note: he doesn't rabbit hunt or field trial....I asked him to get me a copy of her pedigree. Her particular sire was listed throughout the whole pedigree...The guy bred his male to a female took a pup then bred back to him, got more pups and bred back to him again. The sire's sire was a FC and the only FC in the pedigree.... The guy lives in Montana and is a puppy mill in my opinion and sells his pups to pet stores in California ETC .. This is just an example in reference to breeding for the sake of profit, and breeding mediocre hounds just because they are AKC registered. It happens.. This is one of the downfalls of AKC being so big a registry.
There are so many more poeple out there that only know beagles as PETS...
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bob huffman
If I was a betting man I would bet that most of the grade beagles around here are of AKC registered background. Being that I live in SPO country and have several top name SPO beaglers all around me I know for a fact that when a breeder around here has pups that have some sort of physical defect that instead of puttin them down they sell or give them to hunters. I know a trialer that gave two FC bred pups to a hunter because they had bad bites. Now the guy who ended up with them doesn't know anything about pedigrees and bloodlines nor did he ask. Now these pups are officially GRADE dogs. I had a chance to buy a double FC bred male that didn't have any papers on him because someone owed someone money and that made this dog an official GRADE dog. I know a oldtimer around here that HATES registered dogs he says that ALL registered dogs are walkie talkies. NOw he does his fair share of "dog trading" and will call me when he get a registered dog in to see if I know anything about it's bloodlines. Just out of curiosity sake, but I know for a fact when he sell a registered dog they leave his home without papers. Now he don't put the papers on other dogs he simply throws them away. I think it's a shame myself. One last thing people around here love to mix Jack Russells with beagles. I have seen more tham my share of these crossed up dogs and I remember looking at this pup that was just awesome looking little dude and I ask about him and the guy told me he had 1/3 JR in him. Registered or not you don't know what your getting but I believe you have more of a chance with a registered dog. But I could be wrong. LOL! Tom Gross
Try : http://www.rarebreed.com/breeds/treeing ... kc_std.htm
Mystery dog ? Try Black and Tan to put some treeing in the breed :-)
As I said I'm 53 and as a kid I remember seeing reg Walkers at shows - coonhunts that were 1/4 1/2 bluetick.Owners would tell you up front what they were doing.Ain't no big secret there.
Hunt6
Mystery dog ? Try Black and Tan to put some treeing in the breed :-)
As I said I'm 53 and as a kid I remember seeing reg Walkers at shows - coonhunts that were 1/4 1/2 bluetick.Owners would tell you up front what they were doing.Ain't no big secret there.
Hunt6