Pedigrees - How to use them and how far back?

Hunt6 · Post by **Hunt6** » Sat May 17, 2003 3:16 pm

Make that

http://www.rarebreed.com/breeds/treeing ... c_std.html

bob huffman · Post by **bob huffman** » Sat May 17, 2003 6:37 pm

Tennesee Lead was a grade dog of black and tan color that was used to put some GO in the Walker FOX hound breed. He had no influence on the TREEING WALKER breed as he came along before the Walker bros made the accidental cross of brother and sister which started the Treeing Walkers. When they talk about his influence on the Walkers, they are talking about fox hounds. More treeing came from the Birdsong strain later. My good friend William Doss of Morris Alabama, owned some Birdsongs and told me they were small squeely mouthed dogs that had a lot of treeing in them. His daughter June, is married to my brother. Mr. Doss was an orphan and grew up with the legendary COUNTRY BOY EDDIE of B'ham Ala. He taught me a lot about dogs and life!

Hunt6 · Post by **Hunt6** » Sat May 17, 2003 7:12 pm

Bob H wrote
Tennesee Lead was a grade dog of black and tan color that was used to put some GO in the Walker FOX hound breed. He had no influence on the TREEING WALKER breed as he came along before the Walker
snip

Bob they already had the go part down pat ! What they lacked was the stopping at the tree part !! I've been to the Grand American in SC and world hunts in decades past. Talked to the likes of Joe House etc.Walker bos not withstanding,,, Everybody knows where the "treeing" part of treeing walkers came from.It was put there by numerous crosses back to BT and Blueticks etc.And that is ok.Old time breeders went out and gathered up the gene pool they wanted to add into their dogs.

Lot of blueticks looking like walkers now in the hunts!! Why ? They are trying to get - add the "Added GO" you mentioned in their bloodlines which already had the treeing part down pat for decades.
Hunt6

bob huffman · Post by **bob huffman** » Sat May 17, 2003 9:08 pm

Lead was a fox hound and was used to put bottom in the fox hounds, not the coon hounds. Treeing Walker coon hounds were around a long time before Joe House had Bawlie eyc. Can you give me a little Plott history?

TomPA · Post by **TomPA** » Sun May 18, 2003 7:56 am

Bob, I can remember reading the history of Plott hounds in Full Cry magazine as a kid. We had a couple Plotts and a couple Walkers back then. Johnathan Von Plott brought the dogs with him from Germany. It told how he never gave or sold any dogs to anyone for years. He kept all pups and took them hunting when they were about a year old and if they didn't hunt the first time they were culled. Another hunter with legendary dogs in that region eventually got to hunt with him and they did some crossing but that was the only time for many more years. These were a strain of cur dogs. It was in several issues, not a short article. It was in the mid or late 70"s.

Hunt6 · Post by **Hunt6** » Sun May 18, 2003 9:15 am

Bob wrote
Treeing Walker coon hounds were around a long time before Joe House had Bawlie eyc. Can you give me a little Plott history?
snip

Yes they were and they along with blueticks were lumped in with English coonhounds for a long time.If memory serves me they were called english fox and coonhounds when first registered for decades. English hounds being the pot that boiled over the others.

I'm not knocking Walkers.I've owned some.Some of the best tree dogs to ever look up a tree are were and are treeing walkers.But outcrosses have happened from the beginning to get and keep the hard treeing gene breed into Treeing Walkers.The old breeders harvested the traits they wanted where ever they found (mostly from blueticks and english) them until the breed as they wanted it to be known bred true.Same with all breeds.It was still going on in the 60's.

Oh and bob no need for the plott hound comments.They serve no purpose other than to pump your already overly inflated ego.
Hunt6 (David)

Guest12 · Post by **Guest12** » Sun May 18, 2003 9:54 am

Guys is this a beagle message board or is it a coonhound board. I have nothing against you guys discussing coonhounds and their breeding. Used to coonhunt myself. However there's boards on the net for you to discuss coondawgs, or better yet use your email addresses to do so. Can we keep things to beagles around here?

AlabamaSwamper · Post by **AlabamaSwamper** » Sun May 18, 2003 10:15 am

I somewhat agree guest12 but all that can go with this topic. Breeding dogs and crossing dogs, whether registered or not to better the breed. Keeping the strong genes available even if you have to go outside a registery or popular demand to do so. I've done it but no more. I am now going to breed for ability first, registery second. Come see me in 10 years folks and I might have some good "grade" dogs for you to see. I sure hope so anyway. lol

bob huffman · Post by **bob huffman** » Sun May 18, 2003 10:40 am

Using the hounds as an example of how breeds come about and some of the dos and don'ts. Mr. Stephens bred a group of mutts he had and created the Stephens Stock Dog that is a registered breed. If you like things the way they are then this discussion is not for you. If you are interested in improving a strain or breed, you must try new things. I would use the Thoroubred race horse as an example. They have bred themselves into a corner and are not able to create a faster horse. They have not improved their times for years because they are at the boundries of the gene pool. By breeding the same genes for years without outcross the genetic boundries have become set. This may be good or bad, depending on what you want. If you are happy with the status quo, then it is good because they breed true to type in a large percentage. If you want a faster horse, then it is bad because they can't produce a faster horse with the gene pool they have. It could accidently happen, but the odds are not high. An outcross is the most likely way this could happen and it would have to be to a gene pool with more speed. The racing Quarter Horse would be a good attempt because they are faster than Thourobreds. You would then have to breed the endurance back into the crosses. Even this is not a sure thing. Same with Beagles of certain formats or gene pools. You know who you are. If you are happy with what you got, then its the end of the subject. If not, then it bears discussion. I have learned a lot from hunt6 about how to breed dogs as I am a relative newcomer to the art. Thanks big guy and if you are ever in Iowa, bring your dogs over and we will run these sorry things I am feeding with yours and have a look see. I am always looking for an outcross to speed mine up a little and put some nose and brains in them. Thanks for your help and info.

Hunt6 · Post by **Hunt6** » Sun May 18, 2003 11:26 am

To Guest12 who by the way is lacking any type id - email address in their profile :

This thread was about genetic traits - how to get them and how to keep them - grade dog versus reg.The jack russell showing up in beagles etc.The analogy is the same be it beagles or coonhounds.These threads branch out time to time to try to show relevance.

If Bev thinks my responding to another's post where coonhounds were mentioned as a side issue by Bob (and rightly so imho as it related to this thread) was inappropriate on this beagle board then fine.I'll play by those rules.

Unlike the sarcasm in Bob's posts directed at me.Aka his pity party being a newcomer to breeding etc was totally un called and shows a level of immaturity on his part.So be it.

I read his stuff.Always have.He is knowledgable and has made many good posts on a number of boards.You stop thinking and playing what if and you will stop learning.No one holds all the keys.Not even you bob.
Hunt6 (David P.)

Post by **Bev** » Sun May 18, 2003 12:16 pm

I think the coondog stuff is relevent in comparison and even supports what I was saying about necessary measures sometimes for the sake of the breed. I'm not sidetracked by it so all seems okay to me. I do hate to see tension arise between two obviously experienced houndsmen. Both of you (Bob & Hunt6) have "walked with hounds" for many years, but perhaps took different paths rendering different experiences. Who's to say who right or wrong to the absolute? Like a comment I made on Chris's board about when are dogs too old to learn, I'll say the same here about houndsmen: "...when you look up and all you see is dirt."

Carry on, the thread is getting very informative and I think we can all benefit.

Hunt6 · Post by **Hunt6** » Sun May 18, 2003 2:24 pm

Here is why I find this thread so interesting and why I understand where Bev and Alswamper and others are coming from.First off I'm no expert.I'll let others labor under and carry that beast of a mantle. Yes I like a long pedigree.My polyanna side.But I've been around the block and know a little about the game.

We can post genetics 101 all we want to here but until breeders concentrate on several chapters of that book it is doomed to failure.

First chapter : Picking the breeding stock for a possible mating.Chapter Two culling.Chapter three the human aspect behind the why and what are we breeding for.
( the most important imo ).

There have been breeders that got it right for a few generations - periods of time only to have the wheels come off in future generations.Why? The why is always embedded in one of those three chapters.

How do they fix it? Many times it is impossible to go back and pick up that genetic trait within a family of dogs as the "well" is dead.Now what? Man being what he is looks around and harvests what he needs in genetic material to try to put it back in his bloodline.

To Bev's and Alswamper point of view and to complicate matters even more man no longer just breeds for a hunting partner to just take to the woods.Nope.He is breeding to win ribbons and trophies.He breeds for things like extra mouth.Why? He wants to produce a mouthy dog that will get credit for claiming checks before his brain tells him his nose is actually smelling rabbit scent. This helps the dog win and that trait becomes dominate and passed along to Bev's and Alswamper's and my dismay as rabbit hunters first. darn right I can understand their frustation.I share it.

Same with mouthy coon dogs that strike off the tailgate.You know the type that babbles until an honest hound finds game and opens. But the idiot get the points.He wins hunts and is bred.Same with the loss of hunt in many lines of beagles.That is a man made fault born out of convenience and time constraints chasing ribbons.

What I'm saying is this.We will never have genetically superior much less genetically sound dogs that breed true in any great numbers.Why? Because most of the humans that breed them are so genetically defective for the most part.

As I stated before a Good Beagle should be able to win any format given honest humans.Thank goodness for the few breeders of the past and present that do remain true and breed good all around hounds.I respect those that state wait a minute.This is BS and dare to try a different path.With out them new hunters would have nothing of value to start with muchless hunt with.
          Hunt6 (David P)

AlabamaSwamper · Post by **AlabamaSwamper** » Sun May 18, 2003 2:51 pm

Exactly Hunt6. I do not care about those trophies. If I ever win one then great and I will be proud but I have tight mouth dogs and that aint good on getting them checks. When they find it, they bark but not until then. It does help on minusing if no rabbit is produced but that is about all. I raise and hunt dogs for hunting purposes and I dont intend to change. I like to trial, more so going and socializing whether I run a dog or not. I've met some fine folks at trials but like I said before, "my dogs' trophies are in the freezer" and to add to that, the other trophies are in my memory. I like having pedigrees on my dogs and it sure helps when selling a dog but I'm to the point that I could care less. If people just have to have AKC papers, then by all means, go to a pet shop or to someone that has all AKC dogs. I will continue to keep papers on my AKC dogs and will even register my litters and dogs if they can be through AKC. I imagine that eventually, I wont be able to anymore and I will drop AKC for good. I want dogs that run rabbits the way I want them to and if I have to go outside AKC then so be it.

bob huffman · Post by **bob huffman** » Sun May 18, 2003 5:28 pm

What bloodline of Beagle do you have hunt6?

Post by **Bev** » Sun May 18, 2003 5:46 pm

Bob, I know you and your family have had a long history of breeding horse, but when did you get into beagles? When did you breed your first litter? Did you apply some of the same principles or do you still apply some of the same principles in breeding beagles that you did with horses? If so, how's that workin' for ya? (sorry Dr. Phil)