Truman: No way is it nonsense. Go to any public library and research the subject and you'll find it. All living things are the product of approxomatly 50% heredity and 50% environment. In fact it is easily proven. IN fact I'll prove it to you right now. We'll say we have a sire and dam who are a proven breeding pair and they have produced a high number of individuals known to have excellent ocnformation, tamperment and hunting ability. Breed them again and raise the pups under optimal conditions, Best food and water, best health care, large and spaciopus kennel and access to a well stocked running grounds at all times and plenty of kind and gentle handleing from their master. It's not hard to figure that these hounds from proven parents will turn out pretty darn good. Breed them again and raise all of the pups in an area barely large enough for them to turn around in with a wire bottom and not high enough for them to stand straight up. Next give them mearly enough food and water to just keep them alive and never let them out of their little kennel and give them no human contact. Any ideas on how they would turn out? Of course they won't be able to hunt because they don't know how. Their conforamtion will be poor because they lack proper excersize, and their temperment will be poor as well because they have been neglected. Now if environment isn't half of the equation then those hounds that are neglected in the little box won't be effected will they?
Are you saying natural genetic mutation is something to deal with? If so then you know that natural mutation rates are between one in ten thousand and one in a hundred million. Not highly volitile and not something you have to be too worried about.
Gentics-Gun Dog Beagle
Moderators: Pike Ridge Beagles, Aaron Bartlett
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Truman
Royua
Oregon State university O.S.U.
I have been employed at O.S.U. Lab. at Pendelton Oregon For the last 13 years. We are an animal research branch labratory.
I am presently in the field collecting Research samples From dog breeders of dogs that carry the gene Albinism. It is one of the few genes that have been idenifide & cataloged That control more than one function Or And behavearel Plus can obscure phisical make up.
Dr. david Truman O.S.U.
Oregon State university O.S.U.
I have been employed at O.S.U. Lab. at Pendelton Oregon For the last 13 years. We are an animal research branch labratory.
I am presently in the field collecting Research samples From dog breeders of dogs that carry the gene Albinism. It is one of the few genes that have been idenifide & cataloged That control more than one function Or And behavearel Plus can obscure phisical make up.
Dr. david Truman O.S.U.
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bob huffman
Joe that is not a fair assesment because you have put them in a situation they were not designed for. As I said before, you are messing and interfering with them in an artificial way. You are placing unatural obstacles in there way that a wild dog would never encounter. We bred them to need us and it would not be a controlled experiment regarding the natural environment they were bred for. I am talking about the ability to run a rabbit. If you can tell me how to teach that I will listen. Maybe you get out there and bark on the track and let them watch to see how its done. If you agreed it was mostly inherited ability, that would make your training absolute. As for me, I will take the natural born rabbit dog as opposed to the one that needs lots of training to run a rabbit. Around here when we talk about training, we are talking about running the dog and letting it train itself by its own devices and inherited instincts. To each his own.
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Truman
Mr. Hoffman
Very well said , that is my way of thinking also. I will take it one step futher. If you took two pups from the same litter that were breed right and put them in a large enclosure with self feeders and self watering system and put the game in the pen that they were bred for, in this case rabbits and let nature take it's own course. And have two more pups same litter handled, feed, watered, So called trained by a handler. which would most say would be the best at what it was bred for.
Me i would have to say the two that had no human contact. and i am sure someone is going to say those first two would not handle that is untrue fear is man made. Mr. west if you want to try a real test here it is.
Now remember what i stated bred right
Very well said , that is my way of thinking also. I will take it one step futher. If you took two pups from the same litter that were breed right and put them in a large enclosure with self feeders and self watering system and put the game in the pen that they were bred for, in this case rabbits and let nature take it's own course. And have two more pups same litter handled, feed, watered, So called trained by a handler. which would most say would be the best at what it was bred for.
Me i would have to say the two that had no human contact. and i am sure someone is going to say those first two would not handle that is untrue fear is man made. Mr. west if you want to try a real test here it is.
Now remember what i stated bred right
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Guest
Truman wrote:Mr. Huffman
Very well said , that is my way of thinking also. I will take it one step futher. If you took two pups from the same litter that were breed right and put them in a large enclosure with self feeders and self watering system and put the game in the pen that they were bred for, in this case rabbits and let nature take it's own course. And have two more pups same litter handled, feed, watered, So called trained by a handler. which would most say would be the best at what it was bred for.
Me i would have to say the two that had no human contact. and i am sure someone is going to say those first two would not handle that is untrue fear is man made. Mr. west if you want to try a real test here it is.
Now remember what i stated bred right
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bob huffman
The environment only becomes significant when you completely change it, such as putting them in a very small pen and giving them just enough to survive. This would be a huge shift in the environment that they were originaly geneticely adapted to. If pups raised in those conditions didn't turn out well, they would probably not be bred and so again genetics would start to adapt to the new environment. Under the new conditions, the dogs would either become extinct or they would geneticly adapt. Joe your new environment is artificial and is not the normal environment that pups would be subjected to. Your dogs may not be geneticly adapted to run rabbits with very little training. They may need lots of exploration and experience before they are 5 or 6 months old in order to go on and handle the rigors of hunting. Mine are bred for a specific environment. I feed them and raise them up to 5 months and believe it or not, I also pet them and talk to them because that is the environment they must excel in. They must like me and come to me and so while I do this, I observe if they will be good handling dogs. I am looking to see if they have a genetic cooperation in them. Then at 5 months I take them out to the rabbit patch and they start running rabbits and just as soon as possible, I start shooting rabbits for them. I make sure I do this when they have run an honest track and have worked to move the rabbit for a while. Now they are manipulating the environment because it is bred into them. Remember that 10% I talked about. The environment does come into play when I only shoot the rabbit after they have done a good job. The environment has rewarded them with a dead rabbit and they learn that if they track and work well, they will get a reward. This is the environment they have geneticly adapted to but if you suddenly were to change that, Mother Nature would quickly take over and start trying to adapt geneticly. In the case Joe states about putting pups in a small pen and giving them a small amount of food, the dog would evolve as a smaller dog which required much less food and would be small enough to move around some in the pen. Once it was adapted, the environment would not be nearly as important. Once a dog becomes genetically adapted to the environmet he is meant to deal with, it all comes natural to him. You don't have to teach a frog to jump or a fox to catch rabbits. Jut put them in the setting that natural selection designed them for, and they will do the rest. Same for a well bred Beagle.
Bob: Beagles are NOT wild animals, of course I included things a wild dog would never come in contact with. They are not produced by natural selection. IN fact I started the whole statement off saying the pups came from artificial selection although not in those exact words. IN this case you can assume that all the pups are natural born rabbit dogs of exactly the type you would give your right arm to own. It doesn't matter what genes they inherit because genetics is only half the equation. Now I'll grant you Bob that I used extremes to illustrate the point quickly but it works just the same anywhere. No two hunds experiance the same exact things throughout their life and therefore their environment will have different effects on each of them.
Truman: Put two pups in an enclosure and let them run loose with no human contact and then you go and try to put your hands on them. You won't be able to get near them and if you corner them they'll bite to protect themselves. Expecting them to andle is foolish, it won't happen. Fear is not just man made there is also the fear of the unknown. Given no human contact they will fear you it's just natural. But you go ahead and try the experimant. Incidentally hounds are bred to run with man and so the two who are left with no human contact CANNOT be the best at their intended use. You also never thought of the fact that proper training gives a hound confidance.
Nice try Bob but the environment is always significant. The fact that you see drastic effects with big changes only proves that point. I had to use such glareing differences to illustrate my point to you otherwise you would claim to never see it. Now Truman there with all of his degrees and such should have been able to come up with a pretty good answer to shoot that whole thing down pretty quickly if environment were,t half of the equation. He can't because it IS half of the equation.
We have all, everyone of us who has been around hounds for a while, seen a hound who was ruined by a single event. These hounds were raised under the best conditions the handler could provide but the combination if the genes they inherited AND the environment they encountered ruined them. Mind you they were raised just as their litter mates but had just a single event that was different then their littermates OR they reacted to the event differently. That is exactly why the training of hunting beagles is more then anything alse a matter of knowing what NOT to do.
Your hung up on the huge difference. It doesn't matter, big or small the environment effects the hounds. It's undeniable. There is a difference in natural selection and artificial selection. Natural selection is merely survival of the fittest. Artificial selection is what ever the breeder wants it to be. You are right about hounds either becoming extinct or genetically adapting to their environment, that's natural selection. But, at what point would they no longer be beagles but change to something else.
Bob wasn't it you who said you don't run yourhounds till they're 8 or 9 months old? How did mine become not genetically adapted to run at an early age. Besides I wouldn't say they were "genetically adapted" I would say they inherited the genes neccissary to start early and then were given the oppertunity to do so.
The genetic cooperation you speak of is known as tractability. Certainly hounds must inherit that gift but it must be brought out of them with the environment we provide for them.
I'm not clear on how you are saying the hounds are manipulateing the environment.
No Bob I'm not saying that the dog would evolve into a smaller dog that would require less food. The whole point was their environment would effectively prevent them from ever reaching their full potential as rabbit hounds. They never reach their potential because of their environment and it doesn't matter what genes they inherit because environment is the other half of the equaton. Your missing the entire point. Remember hounds are the product of approx. 50% heredity and 50% environment. I'm not talking about how they will evolve over time but just what the hound IS. He can inherit the genes to become the best hound who ever lived and never be able to run a rabbit due solely to his environmet. On the other hand the hound who does not inheret the genes neccissary to run a rabbit in a satisfactory manner will never be able to do so no mnatter how good their environment is.
Truman: The jig is up.
Truman: Put two pups in an enclosure and let them run loose with no human contact and then you go and try to put your hands on them. You won't be able to get near them and if you corner them they'll bite to protect themselves. Expecting them to andle is foolish, it won't happen. Fear is not just man made there is also the fear of the unknown. Given no human contact they will fear you it's just natural. But you go ahead and try the experimant. Incidentally hounds are bred to run with man and so the two who are left with no human contact CANNOT be the best at their intended use. You also never thought of the fact that proper training gives a hound confidance.
Nice try Bob but the environment is always significant. The fact that you see drastic effects with big changes only proves that point. I had to use such glareing differences to illustrate my point to you otherwise you would claim to never see it. Now Truman there with all of his degrees and such should have been able to come up with a pretty good answer to shoot that whole thing down pretty quickly if environment were,t half of the equation. He can't because it IS half of the equation.
We have all, everyone of us who has been around hounds for a while, seen a hound who was ruined by a single event. These hounds were raised under the best conditions the handler could provide but the combination if the genes they inherited AND the environment they encountered ruined them. Mind you they were raised just as their litter mates but had just a single event that was different then their littermates OR they reacted to the event differently. That is exactly why the training of hunting beagles is more then anything alse a matter of knowing what NOT to do.
Your hung up on the huge difference. It doesn't matter, big or small the environment effects the hounds. It's undeniable. There is a difference in natural selection and artificial selection. Natural selection is merely survival of the fittest. Artificial selection is what ever the breeder wants it to be. You are right about hounds either becoming extinct or genetically adapting to their environment, that's natural selection. But, at what point would they no longer be beagles but change to something else.
Bob wasn't it you who said you don't run yourhounds till they're 8 or 9 months old? How did mine become not genetically adapted to run at an early age. Besides I wouldn't say they were "genetically adapted" I would say they inherited the genes neccissary to start early and then were given the oppertunity to do so.
The genetic cooperation you speak of is known as tractability. Certainly hounds must inherit that gift but it must be brought out of them with the environment we provide for them.
I'm not clear on how you are saying the hounds are manipulateing the environment.
No Bob I'm not saying that the dog would evolve into a smaller dog that would require less food. The whole point was their environment would effectively prevent them from ever reaching their full potential as rabbit hounds. They never reach their potential because of their environment and it doesn't matter what genes they inherit because environment is the other half of the equaton. Your missing the entire point. Remember hounds are the product of approx. 50% heredity and 50% environment. I'm not talking about how they will evolve over time but just what the hound IS. He can inherit the genes to become the best hound who ever lived and never be able to run a rabbit due solely to his environmet. On the other hand the hound who does not inheret the genes neccissary to run a rabbit in a satisfactory manner will never be able to do so no mnatter how good their environment is.
Truman: The jig is up.
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Truman
MR. WEST
Seeing you like to pick apart And ad to things that people say. I am sorry to be the one to tell you Genes have everything to do with it, Genes are nature it's self. Training is not natural. Fact is your idea of training takes away natural gene inheritance.
Mr. West As much as you seem to think you know, Have you ever heard of INPRINTING If so tell us a little about it ?
Seeing you like to pick apart And ad to things that people say. I am sorry to be the one to tell you Genes have everything to do with it, Genes are nature it's self. Training is not natural. Fact is your idea of training takes away natural gene inheritance.
Mr. West As much as you seem to think you know, Have you ever heard of INPRINTING If so tell us a little about it ?
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AlabamaSwamper
- Posts: 810
- Joined: Mon Mar 10, 2003 7:06 pm
- Location: Florence, AL
- Contact:
Training, genes, recessive, dominate, black, lemon, cold nose, hot nose.
Whew.
Look, either a dog has it or a dog don't. Its that simple.
Whew.
Look, either a dog has it or a dog don't. Its that simple.
"No stronger bond exist than that between a man and his dog."
Link to RabbitDawg board. (Old Southernbeagles board)
http://www.excoboard.com/exco/index.php?boardid=6643
Link to RabbitDawg board. (Old Southernbeagles board)
http://www.excoboard.com/exco/index.php?boardid=6643
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Beagleman973
- Posts: 184
- Joined: Tue Jan 14, 2003 11:28 am
- Location: Southern Illinois
My take on this is 60% genetic and 40% training. There's no way you will ever convince me that training doesn't play a huge part in a hounds success.
If you don't handle the hounds when they are young, you WILL NOT handle them once they are grown. This is why there is so many hand-shy dogs, they might run a rabbit, but they won't hunt with you nor will they handle for you!
It seems like not too long ago some of you were preaching behavior training of dogs.....and now suddenly you're saying it makes no difference
You can't have it both ways!
Does ringing a bell and making dogs salvitate ring a bell? Is that not a learned behavior. True that has nothing to do with hunting....but trust me training plays a big part of a hounds success. Say from a hunting standpoint. Good breeding. You take one hound and as soon as he jumps a rabbit you shoot it, he never gets a chance to run the rabbit. Soon this hound will just jump rabbits and will have no desire nor "training" to run a rabbit. Same litter, but this hound is allowed to always circle the rabbit before the rabbit is shot at......you tell me which one will be better. Yes genetics play a huge part, you can't make something out of nothing, but you sure can ruin a good thing my improper training.
You can take a hound that has always ran solo for say a year or two, you may never get that hound to pack up. Now we all know that dogs are pack animals, but if the hound hasn't been trained to run and trail a rabbit with a pack, hark to the pack, you will have a hard time getting him to at a later date. Genetics and training go hand in hand. To have one without the other is liking taking a gun, but not taking ammo when you go hunting!
If you don't handle the hounds when they are young, you WILL NOT handle them once they are grown. This is why there is so many hand-shy dogs, they might run a rabbit, but they won't hunt with you nor will they handle for you!
It seems like not too long ago some of you were preaching behavior training of dogs.....and now suddenly you're saying it makes no difference
You can't have it both ways!Does ringing a bell and making dogs salvitate ring a bell? Is that not a learned behavior. True that has nothing to do with hunting....but trust me training plays a big part of a hounds success. Say from a hunting standpoint. Good breeding. You take one hound and as soon as he jumps a rabbit you shoot it, he never gets a chance to run the rabbit. Soon this hound will just jump rabbits and will have no desire nor "training" to run a rabbit. Same litter, but this hound is allowed to always circle the rabbit before the rabbit is shot at......you tell me which one will be better. Yes genetics play a huge part, you can't make something out of nothing, but you sure can ruin a good thing my improper training.
You can take a hound that has always ran solo for say a year or two, you may never get that hound to pack up. Now we all know that dogs are pack animals, but if the hound hasn't been trained to run and trail a rabbit with a pack, hark to the pack, you will have a hard time getting him to at a later date. Genetics and training go hand in hand. To have one without the other is liking taking a gun, but not taking ammo when you go hunting!
If you can't run with the BIG DOGS stay on the porch!
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AlabamaSwamper
- Posts: 810
- Joined: Mon Mar 10, 2003 7:06 pm
- Location: Florence, AL
- Contact:
I agree beagleman. If you don't train that dog to handle and pack early on then it probably never will. My post was meant as far as running a rabbit goes.
Either they got it or they don't.
Either they got it or they don't.
"No stronger bond exist than that between a man and his dog."
Link to RabbitDawg board. (Old Southernbeagles board)
http://www.excoboard.com/exco/index.php?boardid=6643
Link to RabbitDawg board. (Old Southernbeagles board)
http://www.excoboard.com/exco/index.php?boardid=6643
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bob huffman
I agree with Alabama Swamper. Either the dog has it or he doesn't. The IT in this case would be the talents he was born with. Joe when you talk about selection, it doesn't matter if it is nature or man because man is part of nature and survival of the fittest applies in both cases. If a Beagle can't run a rabbit he is a failure just like a wild dog that can't find food. same exact principle in play. If you think man is seperate from nature and doesn't have to abide by its laws, then you are kidding yourself. That is mans problem, he thinks he is seperate from natures laws and can dominate it at will. Your example of raising them in a small pen and abusing them is nothing more than a new set of circumstances that the dog will be selectively bred for trying to seek a successful individual that will perpetuate. Its a no brainer but you have to look at the whole picture and not a selective part of it as you do. I said I start my pups at 5 months but sometimes start them later. Read more carefully. I also said that environment does play a role. You seem conveniently ignore that fact when it serves your purpose. It is 10% environment but having an authoritarian personality and a sense of self importance makes it seem like you are more responsible for your dogs ability that you really are. I don't expect you to change either because the best predictor of future behavior is past behavior.
Okay, I have to jump in here.
Mr. Truman in your scenario with 2 dogs in an enclosure and no human contact and 2 with a human handler, you feel the 2 w/out the human trainer would be better. All you have done here is proven Joe's point that enviroment plays a big role along with Genes. It doesn't matter who is better, the point is the outcome will be different.
To say that a 50 50 is nonsense is the most rediculous thing I have ever heard.
Mr. Huffman,
While I can see you have done a lot of research and I have learned a lot from your post on this subject. I can't agree with your opinion on this enviroment having as little effect as you think it does. Every single little thing that happens to you or around you has an effect on you in some shape or form, minor effect or major effect, physical, mental or emotional. It has an effect. If I would have stopped at a resteraunt this morning for breakfast instead of just getting a donut at the store, I have changed the course of events and therefore changed the effect those events would have had on me. This change may be very minor, however it could cause a chain reaction that makes the change very dramatic. Either way I have changed my enviroment just slightly and therefore changed the effects that enviroment has on me. How big of a change it would be is impossible to know. Sometimes small and sometimes large, but even the small ones add up and contribute to shaping my personality, emotions and possibly physical appearance. Enviroment is what makes us the people we are. Genetics puts the possibilities there. Whether its a dog or human the genetics and enviroment work the same.
Mr. Truman in your scenario with 2 dogs in an enclosure and no human contact and 2 with a human handler, you feel the 2 w/out the human trainer would be better. All you have done here is proven Joe's point that enviroment plays a big role along with Genes. It doesn't matter who is better, the point is the outcome will be different.
To say that a 50 50 is nonsense is the most rediculous thing I have ever heard.
Mr. Huffman,
While I can see you have done a lot of research and I have learned a lot from your post on this subject. I can't agree with your opinion on this enviroment having as little effect as you think it does. Every single little thing that happens to you or around you has an effect on you in some shape or form, minor effect or major effect, physical, mental or emotional. It has an effect. If I would have stopped at a resteraunt this morning for breakfast instead of just getting a donut at the store, I have changed the course of events and therefore changed the effect those events would have had on me. This change may be very minor, however it could cause a chain reaction that makes the change very dramatic. Either way I have changed my enviroment just slightly and therefore changed the effects that enviroment has on me. How big of a change it would be is impossible to know. Sometimes small and sometimes large, but even the small ones add up and contribute to shaping my personality, emotions and possibly physical appearance. Enviroment is what makes us the people we are. Genetics puts the possibilities there. Whether its a dog or human the genetics and enviroment work the same.
...Patch