What has AKC done for us?

[SilverZuk]

I have 3 dogs that are AKC registered.
I don't run AKC trials, or attend AKC events.
I don't breed. If I do it will be for my own purposes.
I don't sell dogs, if I did they would be priced on ability.

I have to ask myself "Why do I send them $20 to register a dog?".
"What benefit do I get for my $20?"

AKC is a closed registry, so you know your dog came from an original approved stock of beagles.
Does this help me? I already know its a beagle and will run a rabbit.

I am an NRA member. The NRA lobbies to protect my rights as a gun owner. What legislation has AKC been instrumental in passing/preventing that benefits people who hunt with dogs?

What are the values of the AKC and what are they doing for guys like me?
I have to ask myself if I want to continue to support them.

[EARLYBIRD]

AKC reg. is $20.00 for ea. dog.

[SilverZuk]

fixed $20.
It has been over a year since I registered one. I forgot how much.

[SilverZuk]

This isn't to slam AKC trials/events, just a rational question of "Why should I register if I don't attend events sanctioned by them".

I would pose the same question if people were inclined to pay more for an NKC/UKC/XYZ registered dog than one that wasn't if you don't run that format.

I just don't see the value to guys like me, or why I would prefer a registered dog vs. grade. (I have had both).

Hypothetical question:
If you had four identical dogs. They were exactly what you want in a dog.
One is AKC registered, one is NKC, one is UKC, and the other is none.

Which dog is worth the most in todays market?
Why?

Would you refrain from buying the dog that was exactly what you were looking for, or refrain from paying a premium price?
Why?

[Beagled1]

This isn't to slam AKC trials/events, just a rational question of "Why should I register if I don't attend events sanctioned by them".

I would pose the same question if people were inclined to pay more for an NKC/UKC/XYZ registered dog than one that wasn't if you don't run that format.

I just don't see the value to guys like me, or why I would prefer a registered dog vs. grade. (I have had both).

Hypothetical question:
If you had four identical dogs. They were exactly what you want in a dog.
One is AKC registered, one is NKC, one is UKC, and the other is none.

Which dog is worth the most in todays market?
Why?

Would you refrain from buying the dog that was exactly what you were looking for, or refrain from paying a premium price?
Why?

You're not looking at it from a breeder's point of view.
First & foremost, I register with AKC in a time when there are so many other options because I don't trust several of the other registeries. The others you mentioned are open regestries, some where all you need is a pic and a vet statement to get your dog a reg. certificate. Come on. If I am paying for a purebred at a specific price I want a complete pedigree going back at least 3 generations. Many other regestries cannot provide this. I can trace back 100 years with AKC.
If you just want a hunting dog or only plan to breed on the rare occasion and keep pups for yourself, then it probably doesn't matter what papers or lack of them your dogs has. But I think most of us who are rabbit hunting with hounds are in it for BOTH the sport and a love of the breed. Speaking for myself, I will not place much value on a grade dog for a breeding program. A grade Beagle of my own turned out to be a superior hunting dog, and since I had no plans to breed her or start a line from her, her lack of pedigree was of no consequence.
However, when you breed purebred dogs, things can go fine in the first generation than go to pot in the second. We NEED to know the vertical & horizontal pedigrees to determine to the best of our abilities what our hounds are likely to produce in hunt style, conformation, health. A good hound may produce garbage, mediocrity, or pups better than themselves. A look through bloodlines will give you a hint as to what lines are the best producers, what bloodlines mesh well, etc.
Again, speaking for myself, I don't trial very often, but sending AKC my $20 is important so that they can contiune to provide field trials and keep this aspect of the breed/sport alive. It might not affect me directly, but I see it as helping the sport. Now, there are other reputable registries out there, that I have no problem dual registering with, but as for using them as the sole registry ... well, honestly with some of the new ones cropping up, there is just no assurance a dog registered with one of them will actually be a purebred or will breed true. So yes, I would pay more for an AKC dog than with other registries - save for a handful - and I do mean a handful of other closed registries. JMHO.

[SilverZuk]

Good responses and please don't think I am arguing.
I just want to engage in a rational discussion so I can learn.

I am just puzzled that a 100 year old pedigree means that much to you.
I know my dog is a beagle, it fits the breed standard and can run its own rabbit. I don’t really need AKC papers telling me it’s a beagle.

I have a dog with a pedigree that would impress many. He is a good dog, has faults, and is not my best.
I have a female who’s pedigree has dogs that are unknown by me, and others that have reviewed it, she is my best dog. I selected her as a pup because I had hunted and trialed with the sire for 2 years, and hunted with the dam.

If and when I breed, I will be breeding with a dog that I have hunted with on at least several occasions and know the faults, along with strong suits.

First & foremost, I register with AKC in a time when there are so many other options because I don't trust several of the other registeries. The others you mentioned are open regestries, some where all you need is a pic and a vet statement to get your dog a reg. certificate. Come on. If I am paying for a purebred at a specific price I want a complete pedigree going back at least 3 generations. Many other regestries cannot provide this. I can trace back 100 years with AKC.

I ordered a pedigree when I sent in my AKC papers on all 3 dogs. I never received a pedigree (they didn’t charge me for it either). When I registered them with ARHA, they included the pedigree on the registration papers at no cost. So you may be able to get a pedigree from AKC, apparently I can’t.

What good does tracing back to more than a handful of generations?
I never saw any of those dogs run, don’t know anyone who has, and don’t hold much faith in various “Champion” titles. I want to see what the dog does, how he does it, and then decide if I want some of his blood.

[SilverZuk]

But I think most of us who are rabbit hunting with hounds are in it for BOTH the sport and a love of the breed.

The point of breeding is for betterment of the breed. I would speculate that I am far more critical than most. I know exactly what I like in a hound, and exactly what I want.

A grade Beagle of my own turned out to be a superior hunting dog, and since I had no plans to breed her or start a line from her, her lack of pedigree was of no consequence.

If a dog was exactly what you want in a beagle, why would you not breed it?
What consequence to the breed does not being registered have?
I like to look at pedigrees. Mostly I only recognize a few names and am lucky to have seen one or two on the pedigree run. I ask others about specific dogs, but don’t make a decision about the dog until I see it work.

However, when you breed purebred dogs, things can go fine in the first generation than go to pot in the second. We NEED to know the vertical & horizontal pedigrees to determine to the best of our abilities what our hounds are likely to produce in hunt style, conformation, health. A good hound may produce garbage, mediocrity, or pups better than themselves. A look through bloodlines will give you a hint as to what lines are the best producers, what bloodlines mesh well, etc.

I don’t know enough about the dogs that are in pedigrees to know which goes well with which. I hope to learn more about different dogs through experience but at this point a name on a pedigree doesn’t tell me a whole lot. This is where you apparently have a lot more experience than myself. I have seen two good dogs produce a litter of culls. Apparently, it was a bad cross. It was a quite common cross as far as bloodlines go.

... well, honestly with some of the new ones cropping up, there is just no assurance a dog registered with one of them will actually be a purebred or will breed true. So yes, I would pay more for an AKC dog than with other registries - save for a handful - and I do mean a handful of other closed registries. JMHO.

If the beagle meets the conformation and performance expectation of a beagle, to me, it is a beagle.
(With tongue in cheek) So if a beagle was bred with a jack russel generations back and bred back to the conformation of a beagle and had exceptional performance – Wouldn’t that be for the better of the breed? You see what I am saying. A jack russel is pushing it, but if you saw a beagle that was exactly what you want in a beagle, wouldn’t you own it, and breed to it for the betterment of the breed?

[bradadkins]

Lets not forgot at one time AKC was a open registry. At one time papers were put on all the beagles then they closed the registry. I have dogs registered both ways. If NKC closed the registry would that make the ARHA hounds worth more? Just a thought...
and for people that put papers on hounds just to say they are AKC...they must really need the money. DNA the hounds.

Not knocking either..just for discussion.




Brad

[Incahoots]

All the registeries are businesses no one is going to do what any of them do for free....

[Rick G]

Just an experience of a friend....He paid huge money to a well know ARHA breeder from Indiana,for a female running dog of supposed 2yrs old. She was not a bad running dog. Although, she was more around the age of 6 (Vet's estimate as well as mine). The breeder, gave my friend a story on how he "fired" the AKC, and that this dog was of pure bred stock.
After a year of hunting her, the time for breeding arived (as he told the breeder he would be doing if the dog worked out) She was bred to a AKC FC, that was in fact recomended by me. I had seen several awesome hounds by this male, and hunted many times with him as well.

She took and 60 days later gave birth to 6 tri color pups. All of wich, grew to be some kind of short ear pit bull cross. The whole litter went well over 16" (she was a tade over 13" as was the sire). He kept one, and it never hunted. He then 1 and 1/2 yr later, bred to my Syris McGee just in case something went wrong the first breeding.....SAME THING HAPPEND!!!!! Top it off, he paid $1200 for this bitch, plus shipping! All of those pups were culled by me!
So it dosent matter if you want to buy an AKC hound, or even register one. ( $15 per hound) As long as your intention is to hunt it only. You may be an honest guy, but ther sure are alot of dishonest ones out there. Do what you want, as long as it is for your own reasons. Sorry but I wouldnt ever consider buying or breeding to a non AKC registered hound. In a few years with the DNA profiling it will be impossible to put fake papers on a hound. That to me is worth sending them my money. Does the AKC do anything for us as hunters? No way in hell! They do however make me not get pit bull looking beagles, and keep my line pure.
A friend of mine has a dog named Dolly. She is picture perfect to breed standerd's. ( I am a lic. conformation judge) But her mom is a lab mix, and her dad was yet another mixed bred mut. I bet you 95% of the houndsmen on this site would with out a doubt think her to be 100% beagle.(myself included)
Dont get me wrong, I like all the registries, and have competed and finished hounds in all of them. UKC does the most for us as hunters, ARHA has promoted a realistic rabbit hunting trial, and the AKC and CKC has tried to be the recording secretary. If you think that a "breed inspector" who measures your dog under 15" and say's "yup looks like a hound" is the judge and jury on your hounds pedigree, and then paying that registry $15, well go ahead and spend your money that way.
An extra few bucks on an AKC registerd dog or papers, is far less than $1200.00 for a pit bull/beagle mix.
Ya know whats even a better fact on this subject ? To my knowlage, Everett Morgan (founder of ARHA), as well as Todd Morgan(UKC beagle operations), both have AKC registered dogs as their foundation stock.( Ap Mt. Jay & Scout, T-N-T Right hand Man) They didnt start or work for a new way to register hounds, they did and do it, to better meet the competition needs of the rabbit hunters to promote a hunting hound!

How can we as breeders better the breed, if we are not 100% sure of what the breed is????? That should be the question!

Feed what you like and like what you feed. But I dont have to do either.
I hope I did not offend as this is just my two cents on the registries.

Rick

[full circle kennel]

i was reading an old issue of the rabbit hunter the other day concerning how the arha was developed. it was stated that the early movement of walkie talkie brace dogs took the beagle breed in a direction that made them a unfit hunters dog. they were bred down to nothing.most that entered the trials quit and people started to loose interest in the sport. some started beeding for a spo style of hound while others never worried about their papers only breeding their own stock.thus the creation of the arha.over the years the arha has made it possible for those guys to have a format to compete in. the akc has had good sucess at keeping the records but these same dogs that win in akc can and are beat at trials in arha and ukc.furthermore, the beagle has had bits and pieces in its pedigree if you look back far enough.if it fits the breed description looks like a beagle and does what is supposed to do how can you fault this?also the practice of breeding papers doesn't gaurantee results either. the only thing it does is give you a way to trace the ancestors to make reproduction of a line easier. jmo.....

[burbba]

Nice post Rick. I went to an ARHA trial once... and was told all I had to do was pay the $ to them on the spot and my dog could be arha registered... and yes, I was told there was a fee to register with ARHA, NKC, UKC. Probably $15 just like AKC.

Kinda scary if you ask me. Now, I may have misunderstood, or have been misinformed, but thats the way I took it.

Now with AKC, for me, and most I think, it is a confidence thing. You know as much as you can possibly know about a dogs breeding and lineage. I dont have a lot of trust in the others, based on my limited knowledge of them. I'm admitting I have limited knowledge of the other registries though.

Me, I'd pay more for an AKC dog vs a "grade" dog or UKC/NKC registered dog, all other visible traits being equal. Papers dont run a rabbit, I admit, but it makes me feel better inside knowing its as much on the up and up as possible. I'm sure some of the BEST rabbit dogs ever were "grade" dogs from years past, but some probably werent even beagles!

If $15-$20 is the problem, how do you plan to feed it, worm it, vaccinate it, etc...?

If you choose not to register b/c you see no value, thats up to you. feed what you want, run what you want, keep what you want and you know the rest.

[SouthernBeagles]

the akc has had good sucess at keeping the records but these same dogs that win in akc can and are beat at trials in arha and ukc..

You lost me right there.........

I began trialing in the ARHA years ago. I was somewhat sucessful in the trials and finished several dogs as well as won a few awards. See, the ARHA PP trial format was what I was introduced to first! I had never been to an AKC trial and just went on hearsay about how slow the dogs were, no hunt, politics ext......

Well a few years ago I left the great ARHA for SEVERAL reasons and tried my luck in AKC. What I found is they run a very similar dog to what was once being promoted in the ARHA PP. In area to area some are faster, slower, cleaner, rougher just like the ARHA and UKC.

These are three different registries that promote their version of a rabbit dog. Just like with hunters, what is a fault in one dog or format might not be in another and there is a format for all speeds and styles of hounds.
Your UKC dogs will loose in ARHA and AKC and your ARHA dogs will loose in AKC and UKC too...........But sometimes they cross over and win!!! So please don't go there about the AKC trial dogs. Brinsky's run em over Tank is a great example of this

So what has the AKC done for me? Well, they are active in protecting our rights as breeders, hunters and dog owners on capitol hill. I admit the paws thing didn't go over too well but all in all the AKC is there to help us.

[Rick G]

What exactly has the AKC done on cap. hill, for us as hunters? Maybe as breeders but to my knowlage I dont know of any representation of the hunting dog owners by the AKC in any hunter's rights issues in D.C.

Please correct me if im wrong, as maybe I might have more respect for them knowing they are trying to protect my right to hunt rabbits.
Thank you for any info on this.[/quote]

[CHRIS WHITT]

I am refering to one of the first statements made. I am also a member of the NRA and north American hunting club and both of these foundations put up millions of dollars a year to make sure that we keep our 2nd ammendment right. I most of the NRA news letters it includes organazations that help protect our right to arms.Not only am I refering to the AKC'S lack of support but many other clubs that don't seem to do thier part in protecting the very thing that keeps them in buisness.