Puppies, Breeding and MONEY????

danny vansickle · Post by **danny vansickle** » Thu Jun 07, 2007 11:31 am

i got one for you,bulliebeagles,they are beagles crossed with english bulldogs,seen them on puppiefind.com,500-1,000 bucks

what's next?

badlands · Post by **badlands** » Thu Jun 07, 2007 1:12 pm

i have hunted with some of these high titled hounds mostly coon hounds and have found that many of don,t impress me enough to breed to them, some have been very good however, but most of the times i would rather breed to one i own that i have hunted with many times, and seen in many diffrent situations, i think promotion makes a lot these hounds better than they are.

jonnyringo · Post by **jonnyringo** » Thu Jun 07, 2007 5:19 pm

In my opinion there is too much breeding that has not been well thought out and guys or gals trying to make a quick buck by breeding to anything out there at all costs. Too many dog jockies! - that buy, sale, breed etc. to turn a buck or are looking for something they will never find.
I personally have raised three litters in twenty years and tried to do it correctly.
I do believe one should look at at pedigrees but more importanlly watch the stud run (and breed to a worthy well bred bitch). I own an awesome bitch that I will breed to the best papered and running stud I can find. I won't mention stud dog names but I have ran with one stud dog and he is the real deal. That will be my next breeding next year. It will be Belle's second breeding and second to last. I will breed a great running and bred bitch three times and it is final. Great bitches are to be ran and hunted and treated with dignity. Not bred at every opportunity to make a buck.

Matt Wilson · Post by **Matt Wilson** » Thu Jun 07, 2007 6:15 pm

What gets me and there as been a few letters in the local paper is the amount of puppies that people are selling every weekend outside of walmart. All kinds of breeds but I have seen many a beagles to usually 50 to 75 bucks. They are breeding them to try and make a few bucks. This floods the local market driving the price down for a well bread pup. People think if its a beagle it has to run rabbits. Some of these may but most of them wont as the parents havent ever been hunting.

tiffinis · Post by **tiffinis** » Thu Jun 07, 2007 8:58 pm

Hey Chris, thanks for fixing my typo

If you want more money for the pups, you always have the option to keep the whole litter, start them all and sell them as started hounds. I know some like SPK get good money for started hounds. But most of us dont have time for that either.

I would rather buy a pup from someone who has done the research and tried to make the best cross. Someone who breeds responsibly and with desire to improve the line or breed. If I have to pay a little more for that, then so be it.
I would rather pay the higher dollars to those people, the $50 to the guy down the street with several litters per year.

There are some very responsible "backyard breeders" out there as well as some irresponsible "kennel breeders". I hate the stereotyping.

badlands · Post by **badlands** » Fri Jun 08, 2007 1:01 am

duke i have a question for you, if on one hand you have a stud in the hands of a high profile owner that has a stud dog that has won a world title, but is the only the only outstanding dog in his perigree or on the other hand you have a stud dog in an unknown breeders hands that is untitled but comes from a perigree that every dog is outstanding, which dog would you breed to? I wonder how many times a high profile owner has purchased a cheap pup from a small breeder and then turned it into a world champ? it would be very interesting to see how world champions were bred by their owners, at the time they won its title.

Duke · Post by **Duke** » Fri Jun 08, 2007 6:50 am

Badlands,
That is a very good question. The simple answer is I, personally will go for a line of dogs that are successful rather than a dog that has an unproven background. I guess Badlands you touched on part of what I was trying to get opinions on in breeding. For Myself I really like to study pedigrees. I think you have a much better chance of success breeding to a line of great hounds, whether line breeding, outcrossing ect.... to come up with a good to great puppie. And that line can come from the yard of a gun hunter. That segways into Hares question.

Hare, I have run with you and had the pleasure of seeing your hounds work.

If I remember right they were very well bred Northway hounds. I think from just the short time that I was with you, that you take great consideration in everything you do. I am sure it is the same with your breedings. You started off with very good stock and worked to improve it. You are a successful breeder and you know it.

It is really interesting to listen to everyones views. I personally will never spend a couple of grand on an adult dog. I did offer a high price for a very young dog my friend has once, but it is still learning and will be a great hound one day. I get my kicks out of taking a pup from weaning to solidly running or failing as happens. The dog means so much more to me if I have been there through all stages of its development. So I try my best to start with a good foundation so my success rate is higher.

I am not saying that we should slow down our breeding so that prices go higher. My opinion is that each and every breeding could be well thought out and the beagles on the whole would improve. So the tie in to money is value. If the breeding of beagles as a whole improves, all of our success improves, and with that pups on a whole are a better value.

jonnyringo · Post by **jonnyringo** » Tue Jun 12, 2007 9:28 pm

Anyone who breeds and does not look at pedigrees is just rolling the dice. They may hit the jackpot but chances are they will be disappointed.
Read any book on breeding and then come back and rethink before one replies. Again, too many guys who get a kick out of making a few cheap dollars. It is easy to see who the dog jockies and puppy millers are. Dog breeding should be to better the breed... not breed to turn a few cheap dollars. Go to this sight or all the others and one might think he was at Abe's used car lot.

danny vansickle · Post by **danny vansickle** » Tue Jun 12, 2007 9:58 pm

when i breed i pay more attention to what each dog give to the cross as far as ability more than what the pedigree is,and try to better the cross,lets say you have a male that is super fast,good line and a good check dog,but lacks hard hunt,well breed a hard hunting female with the same traits if that is what you like,if you want to put line control into the cross breed a dog with excelent line control.

i can't stand paper breeders,i have some friends that worship the ground branko krpan walks on,they think that if the papers are full of branko dogs than the cross will work,they don't have a clue,and are breeding dogss that they think they can sell for 400 each cause of thier pedegrees,they are in for a rude awakining when they end up with a yard full of dogs that no one wants.

wvduece · Post by **wvduece** » Tue Jun 12, 2007 10:48 pm

justwatch closely n see how many breeders switch stud dogs everytime a dog wins a big hunt this year its ole blue that won the world n next year it red rosie they run all over the country trying to breed to the HOUND OF THE MONTH why its for the MONEY or trying to make a good dog out of nothing but JUNK to start with you cant take a sorry jyp n breed it to a big winner n get consisetence you might get lucky n get a nice pup from to time but ya need have a good jyp to breed to this winner usually when i breed i have never had a problem getting rid of the pups but i only breed when i need to freshen up my pack i just got home been running for about 4 hours from start to finish nothing but hard pounding one rabbit after another some great runs some ladsted about 50 minutes dogs had a good time n i did too jb

Huntin54 · Post by **Huntin54** » Tue Jun 12, 2007 10:49 pm

danny vansickle wrote:when i breed i pay more attention to what each dog give to the cross as far as ability more than what the pedigree is,and try to better the cross,lets say you have a male that is super fast,good line and a good check dog,but lacks hard hunt,well breed a hard hunting female with the same traits if that is what you like,if you want to put line control into the cross breed a dog with excelent line control.

I haven't had any pups yet. But from most of the things I read thats what they say, go for traits that you want.

danny vansickle · Post by **danny vansickle** » Tue Jun 12, 2007 11:11 pm

wvduece wrote:justwatch closely n see how many breeders switch stud dogs everytime a dog wins a big hunt this year its ole blue that won the world n next year it red rosie they run all over the country trying to breed to the HOUND OF THE MONTH why its for the MONEY or trying to make a good dog out of nothing but JUNK to start with you cant take a sorry jyp n breed it to a big winner n get consisetence you might get lucky n get a nice pup from to time but ya need have a good jyp to breed to this winner usually when i breed i have never had a problem getting rid of the pups but i only breed when i need to freshen up my pack i just got home been running for about 4 hours from start to finish nothing but hard pounding one rabbit after another some great runs some ladsted about 50 minutes dogs had a good time n i did too jb

how true,that is why when i breed,i breed to the best,just so happens he is only a mile from my house,unless i want to try something different,but beleive this i do not breed for the money,i have 4 brood females,all four are very good hounds and run the style i like,and hunt very,very hard,but when i do breed for money,i breed my english bulldogs that is,believe me,there is no money in breeding beagles

Post by **Bev** » Wed Jun 13, 2007 6:02 am

Watching pedigrees is not so much assuring you will have the perfect breeding as it is lessening the odds for a bad one. Knowing what I used to know compared to what I know now, I'd never breed 2 dogs if I didn't have a pedigree. Mind you, I didn't say "registered only", but from stock where someone has kept a meticulous pedigree, i.e. Hunter Joe never registered his dogs, but kept his own records in an effort to keep his own hunting pack up to snuff. He can tell you about every dog in his dog's family. Assuming he's honest, that would be good enough.

In any event, it's not enough just to stick 2 dogs together that happen to be good, and both have the traits you like, if you don't know what's behind them. What if one or both simply got lucky, and were the only two in their respective litters that weren't a knucklehead? If he/she turned out okay and makes a bang-up hunting dog, but 3/4 of the dogs behind him were worthless, what are the odds you're gonna get what you want? I had a 12-3/4" bitch I couldn't get 13" pups out of no matter what I bred her to. Upon examining her pedigree in later years, I realized that everything behind her was big. No wonder I couldn't get 13" hounds - she was a fluke in her family of 15" hounds.

Those genes in the background don't go away, and you can't overwrite them, so ya need to know what you're dealing with.

Duke · Post by **Duke** » Wed Jun 13, 2007 12:55 pm

Danny,
I own mostly Blueback hounds, but I cannot argue with what Krpan has accomplished. As far as waliking of water, I dont think so, only one man has been born to this earth that could do that.

Pedigrees are the HISTORY BOOKS of a hound or line of hounds. The art of reading pedigrees for breeding is to find GREAT HOUNDS with traits like YOU are talking about, being bred to GREAT HOUNDS that are producing hounds with traits like YOU are talking about. Pedigrees are the blueprints or MAPS of how the GREAT HOUNDS were produced and how GREAT BREEDERS produced their lines. They really are much more than paper when it comes to some breeders and certain hounds, they show the how and means to PRODUCE.

Danny you are a very good breeder. And Danny if you are breeding to who I think you are, well that hound was not produced by chance. He has a GREAT PEDIGREE with a lot of GREAT PRODUCERS in it. Also I think you have a fair amount of Branko in some of your dogs. The Reggie Hound for example

is not a chance breeding, his pedigree is filled with very good hounds. Reggie also has Branko Blood in him, so again I dont dismiss what Krpan or any other GREAT BREEDERS have accomplished. I only want to learn what I can from all of them.

I want to buy those pups with the greater potential of being great hunting and field trial hounds. THAT MY FRIEND IS WHAT VALUE IS ALL ABOUT.
POTENTIAL.

danny vansickle · Post by **danny vansickle** » Wed Jun 13, 2007 1:37 pm

don't get me wrong,i am not doubting branko blood ar bashing it,i was just telling you how my buddy is,he thinks if the dog doesn,t come straight out of brankos stock it is no count,he refused to breed to reggie because he did not have enough brqnko blood in him,

REGGIE GOES BACK TO ALL BRANKO BLOOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!

mu buddy said no,it is turbo and ninja,he wants only branko,

he thinks it has to have the actuel name branko in it to be worthy of him to own or breed to,and i for one am not impressed by what is coming out of their kennel as of late,sure they laid the foundation of some of the finest hounds and bloodlines being ran today,but just because you breed brankos bob to brankos betty,that does not mean you are gonna get awesome dogs.that is paper breeders.