arha lp and oversized dogs

danny vansickle · Post by **danny vansickle** » Thu Jun 21, 2007 1:15 am

there has been a lot of talk lately about size of dogs,there was an unpresidented number of dogs measured out at the world,but ask yoursel this,how much does size make a difference in the outcome of hunts in lp format?

to score positive points in lp,a dog has to either jump or strike in on a rabbit wich goes back to the hunt in a dog,do you honestly believe size has anything to do with how hard a dog hunts,no.

the other way to score is by getting checks,a check occurs when forward progress stops for 15 seconds and a dog finds the track and claims in and moves the line,does size really make any difference in a dogs ability to score checks?no,it goes back to how powerfull it,s nose is and how it works the check area.

all size does is MAYBE make a dog run faster than another and in arha lp,there is no scoring on speed and drive,right?

true rules are rules,but should a dog with a lot of ability not be allowed to compete if it is a 1/4 inch taller?

the thing is you let three different master of hounds measure a dog,you will get three different measurements,so why not instate an official measurement policy like akc has,have three different breed inspectors measure a hound,if it measures in,then issue the owner an official measurement card,fact is a lot of dogs today are borderline 15 inches,and wouldn't you be upset if you paid a ton of cash,worked your but off and make it lets say to the finals of the world hunt,then someone measures your dog and just so happens it stands straighter that day and is 15 1/4 inches and all your work is wiped away over something that really does not have any affect at all on the dogs ability to score?

this is no attempt to cause an argument just want peoples opinion and input,thanks

CPC · Post by **CPC** » Thu Jun 21, 2007 7:54 am

It doesn't matter about what we think....IT IS A RULE. If you want it changed go to the next rules committee meetings and have the rule changed or else do not whine when someone upholds a RULE.

No different than any other rule you don't like.

DedRabbits · Post by **DedRabbits** » Thu Jun 21, 2007 7:57 am

I looked at the breed standards for beagles, according to AKC rules. All they really stated was that any beagle over 15 inches is disqualified. I guess if someone is going to compete with their beagle, then they should make sure their dog is under 15 inches. I agree with you that size may not necessarily decide the outcome of a field trial, but where would you draw the line? Over 15 inches means over 15 inches. I don't trial, but I sure wouldn't want to run against dogs that were 16, 17 inches or taller. Pretty soon you'd be running against Walkers, and I'm pretty sure they can outrun my beagles.

bradadkins · Post by **bradadkins** » Thu Jun 21, 2007 8:19 am

here is a question that might be of some interest..

does everyone know of the proper way to measure a dog?I have seen them measured several different ways at different trials with different stands.

I have seen them on flat ground and they sit a stand on them..I have seen them posed(which is not a natural stance) and I have seen them with the head straight out. How does everyone at your local clubs measure dogs in question? Just curious on this..because this will make the dog's actual height vary greatly.

on the height issue I do think ARHA should rethink its policy. Not to raise the height but to change the way dogs are measured. Instead of putting the burden on the handlers to ask for the dog to be qualified..(especially at the big hunts) they should have to be officially measured or measured at the hunt before the entry. When handlers ask it makes for conflict and bad feelings. Even thought it is a 15 inch rule I just believe the way the ARHA should have a more active role in this issue. Not knocking the ARHA at all...just think the system should be tweeked some.

Brad

mud · Post by **mud** » Thu Jun 21, 2007 8:26 am

I don't trial anymore.Years ago I used to and liked it.Winning at all cost attitudes and actions turned me against it.I still go to a few hunts to visit a few old friends and to keep in touch never take a dog.I hear often the debate that the 15in. height rule is loosely applied.However I am like CPC if its a rule it should be enforced until its changed. Whats ironic to me is that owners and handlers get bent out of shape when someone calls for their dog to be measured.I have seen all kinds of responses because someone within the rules asked a dog to be measured. Cursing,threats,reckless driving leaving the club house etc.You get the ideal.It seems competition brings out the worst in us. Me included if I let it.Everone loves to win still rules are rules.

SilverZuk · Post by **SilverZuk** » Thu Jun 21, 2007 8:36 am

My opinion is;
You have to draw the line somewhere. Someone drew teh line at 15" a long time ago. That is what the rules were when I got into it, so I live with them.

The purpose of field trials is to compete rabbit dogs and find the best of the breed, and for the betterment of the breed.

One thing about a rabbit dog is that it should move the rabbit at a decent pace, but is not suppose to catch the rabbit. With height comes speed, there is such thing as too fast when talking about a rabbit dog. The guys that disagree don't gun hunt or have never seen a fast dog.

Many ARHA LP dogs are too fast for my tastes when rabbit hunting. They put too much pressure on the rabbit which causes it to hole faster, or break out of its normal loop and make a run for another area. I want a dog that keeps the rabbit up and running on its normal circuit, not push it to a hole or out of the area. If I hunted hare, I might want that style dog but on WV cottontail I feel you will put more rabbits on the table with a medium speed dog.

Might read these threads:

http://americanbeagler.huntingboards.co ... hp?t=28870

http://americanbeagler.huntingboards.co ... hp?t=28588

Tim H · Post by **Tim H** » Thu Jun 21, 2007 8:37 am

The root of the size question always comes back to a basic question. Should we have standards? How can you compare anything if there are no standards to measure them against?

The idea behind the standards are to give breeders some guidelines as to how to improve the breed. You don't have to agree with the standards unless you choose to participate in that registries program. There will never be a standard that everyone agrees with but everyone has the chance to prove their standards improve the breed. The standards do change from time to time when enough evidence supports the change.

The example given doesn't reach a level that would justify changing the standard. To the contrary, it disproves it's own premise. The premise of the post is size really doesn't make a difference in the outcome of the trial. The conclusion made from this premise is size shouldn't disqualify the hound. The flaw with the conclusion is it is assumed that the standard is set for the purpose of eliminating the unwanted only. To the contrary standards are also set to include the desirable. The standard has proven itself to be an accurate prediction of the likelihood of producing a high quality beagle/rabbit dog.

The highest quality beagles have been in the 10"-15" height range and that is where the standard was set. If larger beagles were consistently proving this premise wrong then I believe the standard would be changed.The idea of a standard is to get closer to perfection, that requires narrowing the parameters, not expanding them. If I'm aiming at the bullseye on a target, making the center circle bigger would not make me a more accurate shooter, it would only appear that way on my scorecard. If we keep making the center circle bigger, pretty soon everyone is a marksman that nobody wants to hunt with.

SilverZuk · Post by **SilverZuk** » Thu Jun 21, 2007 8:38 am

I agree that there should be official ways to measure a dog.
As far as measuring every dog, I don't see the need. The rules are there along with enforcement and penalties.

If you don't have the willingness to call a dog out to be measured at the casting stake, keep your mouth shut.

bradadkins · Post by **bradadkins** » Thu Jun 21, 2007 9:49 am

Silverzuk,

I agree with you.
Maybe dogs in question should be officially measured after a certain age and that measurement should stand. Maybe during registation of a new dog? Maybe add it to the NKC registration papers? a measurement card to show at sign in?

Just throwing ideas out there. Anyone else?

For everyone's information..

Beagle Breed standard
SIZE
English Desirable minimum height at withers 33cm (13 ins). Desirable maximum height at withers 40cm (16 ins).

*** Please note, in the USA, there are two recognized sizes.
13 inches (Not exceeding 13 inches at the withers.)
15 inches (Not exceeding 15 inches at the withers.)

Brad

yellowdog · Post by **yellowdog** » Thu Jun 21, 2007 9:53 am

rules are rules in my opinion...but..like said before if you get your 15 and a half incher to the finals at the world and someone measures you out it does cause conflict between beaglers...this is where the arha should step in and measure brfore the hunt or give the hound an oficial measurement...if you raise the standard over fifteen where will it stop ?....dont get me wrong here i dont care to drop my lil ponies with any of those race horses but i also agree that this is a problem in arha that causes conflict between beaglers..a handler should not have to ask for a hound to be measured cause then that handler would be considered a sh## disturber it should be up to the master of hounds to overlook the cast stakes and pull out the questionable hounds...jmho...i personnaly could care less if yall run 18 inch dogs..but some have issues with it...arha needs to address this situation...period

JUDE · Post by **JUDE** » Thu Jun 21, 2007 10:22 am

My story :
He was a handsome young hound a pleasure to look at and a natural posing hound for the bench

. I made sure he had plenty of love and attention as I wanted him to be as perfect in every way as possible after all he was my first ever "trial" dog . I took him out a few times when he was younger just to get him use to it . I really enjoyed just seeing him getting in the brush and showing how great he was gonna be . After all he was my first "Trial Champion" . I waited until he was about 8 mos old before taking him to a starting pen for 2 weeks and it was money well spent . If my memory serves me right he was running with the older hounds his first time out in the wild

. He was jumping his own rabbit by his 3rd time out in the wild

. I seen him run with what I would consider medium speed hounds and be in the lead . Don't get me wrong he still wasn't finished or perfect but he was my first "trial champion".
I had worried a few times that he was gonna be too big , but was assured by all who looked at him that he wasn't over 15 (I still have people argue that with me and I wish they were right). I had considered never looking at trials again after all the work I had put into him . You would have had to been there to know how this feels . I'm a rabbit hunter first but I really enjoy going on a hours hunt with 5 - 7 other people there's just something enjoyable about it . I enjoy seeing others succeed always have and hope I always will , but I also wanted to compete without being laughed at too much . Well guys I got to go now . I just wanted to throw this in the mix . Goodluck .

Buddy

danny vansickle · Post by **danny vansickle** » Thu Jun 21, 2007 11:47 am

i knoiw we have to draw a line but what i was refering to was dogs that are right there borderline,15 - 15 1/2,i could take an officaial 14 in dog,and stand it right,it will measure over 15.

like brad said,there needs to be a certain way to measure dogs.

when i started trialing,my home club and another club had a lil "beef" goin on between them,i went to the other clubs trial and had a new dog i needed to get registered,he was what i would call a lil patch male,he has at the most 14 1/4 in tall,no more,well the breed inspector at the club came out and took the dog and propped him way up,i mean really tried to stand him on his tippy toes,he dropped his lil home made measuring stand over his shoulders,he was good,he propped him again,the dogs hind quarters was way down and by lookin at the dog he looked all out of wack,the guy had his hand under his chest and his front feet where barely on the ground,still good,one of my club members standin there made a comment and the guy said,FINE,14 7/8 HE IS IN!!!!!!!!

point is,if someone wanted to measure a dog out that was actually right on 15 in proper stance,they could easily,and what could you do,just like in the field it is a judgement call.

i am now good friends with the guy and even then had nothing against the guy,the beef had nothng to do with me.but the point is,walk the dog under,measure him with a propper stand,don't prop him,just a casual stance,feet square under his shoulders and measure him,that is it.

like i said in the original post,this is no attempt to argue,although like always some take it wrong,i am not wining,i was runnin dogs last night with a buddy and this discussion came up so i posted it.

B.Trull · Post by **B.Trull** » Thu Jun 21, 2007 1:33 pm

I dont trial , but I find sticking some arbitrary size maximum on a dog silly, and unproductive. Do working police K-9's have a size requirement ? A dog should be choosen on its working ability not its frame size. It should consistently circle a rabbit to the gun , under any weather conditions with a minimum of breakdowns, given honest tongue as the line is progressed, shut up when the line is lost and hark to its pack mates. I am pretty sure both of the nice young males I have out here are with me because they are pushing the 15 inch line. Good for Brad

Guess someone should tell Tony Parker he cant be the NBA finals MVP because he is at too much of a height disadvantage at 6' 1" in the NBA.

danny vansickle · Post by **danny vansickle** » Thu Jun 21, 2007 1:54 pm

something else to think of is this:

since lp is pushin the 15 in mark like they are,how fair is it to guys who run 13 in hounds in lp.

i think if size is of such importance,they need to make a 13 in class and a 15 in class like akc.

lookat tracy's ringo dog,he is 13 inches and can still get the job done,he is at a 2 in disadvantage,so why makes them think a 15 1/2 in dog has an advantage over a 15 in dog?

the way lp is set up,no drive points are awarded,so size really does not give any dog an advantage,the way i see it is this,if it is a beagle,and everyone agrees it is a beagle,let it run.

if it is ok to run a 15 in dog against a 13 in dog,why not run a 16 or 17 in dog against a 15 in dog?

food for thought,hmmmm?

Chris Shoopman · Post by **Chris Shoopman** » Thu Jun 21, 2007 2:08 pm

THIS IS A NEVER ENDING TOPIC, SPEND YOUR SUMMER RUNIN YOUR DOGS.....JUST STOP AND THINK YOU MIGHT JUST FIND SOMETHING IN YOUR KENNEL YOU DIDTEN KNOW YOU HAD!