A general forum for the discussion of hunting with beagles, guns, clothing and other equipment and just talking dawgs! (Tall tales on hunting allowed, but remember, first liar doesn't stand a chance)
Larry G wrote:I bought a good bitch that had inguinal hernia on both sides. It never showed up in her pups and never bothered her at all. .
This makes perfect sense to me. I know cause I have been there
The male didn't carry the hernia gene therefor none of the pups showed the hernia. Now HERE LIES THE PROBLEM.......... The only gene these pups could get from the dam was the hernia gene so each one of those pups carry the recessive gene to throw the hernia and IF ANY of the pups are bred to a hound that either carries the gene recessive or has the hernia, the pups WILL throw pups with hernias.
In other words, you hid the gene when you bred to a male that didn't carry it BUT its still there
In my experience inguinal hernias are hereditary. Not only that but, they are very difficult to repair and are harmful to the dog. I had one in a cocker puppy that had a huge hole in his diaphram. We did a repair and neuter at the same time. With Umbilical hernias I think there can be a hereditary component but, in most cases its just random. If your entire litter has them and subsequent litters have them I'd say that bitch needs to be removed from your breeding program but, just one now and then that are quite small wouldn't worry me. I have a couple of bitches also that look like they have a hernia but, its a little piece of fat where a hernia corrected on its own and that fat is on the outside of the muscle but, under the skin.
Recessive genes for all sorts of faults in hounds, animals of all kinds, and people are always there and can never be eliminated. The faults show up more when closely related individuals are mated together. That is why Jerry Lee Lewis caught a lot of flak for marrying his cousin.... not to mention that she was only 13 years old at the time.
And even if you breed 2 dogs that don't show the fault, but carry the gene for it, there is a 1 in 4 probability that a pup will show it. There is no way of knowing that the recessive gene is there except by test breeding to a dog that is double recessive or at least single recessive.
Last edited by Larry G on Thu Dec 20, 2007 5:49 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Larry G wrote:Recessive genes for all sorts of faults in hounds, animals of all kinds, and people are always there and can never be eliminated. The faults show up more when closely related individuals are mated together. That is why Jerry Lee Lewis caught a lot of flak for marrying his cousin.... not to mention that she was only 13 years old at the time.
And even if you breed 2 dogs that don't show the fault, but carry the gene for it, there is a 1 in 4 probability that a pup will show it. There is no way of knowing that the recessive gene is there except by test breeding to a dog that is double recessive or at least single recessive.
Larry?
Are you saying we shouldn't worry about bad genes because they are going to be there anyway?? In a way you are right, no dog is without fault........but an inguinal hernia is right up there with the worst of bad genes and should be removed from the breeding program. We aren't talking about a dog that comes from a line of having a little too much bark in the check ya know
BTW
The bitch would have a 1 in 2 chance of throwing pups with a hernia if bred to a male with the recessive gene and a 100% chance of throwing the recessive gene for it. Her pups who carry the recessive gene will throw a 1 in 4.
It is a KNOWN fault. It could have stopped with her by not breeding her or her sire or dam again. Run them and love them.
Now someone later on who understands the seriousness of this gene will have to go through what I did............. And I am NOT SAYING you knew better at the time, but you know now
The REASON the faults show up more in closely related individuals is because you are narrowing the gene pool. If the gene pool is clean, this isn't a problem BUT if there are issues (like the hernia) you are stacking the deck in the favor of those genes pairing up. Inbreeding is a good way check the line for issues. It is better to know starting out than to get deep into your breeding program and have to start all over.
SB you can't get the gene pool clean. You won't live that long. Bob Wehle and George Nixon proved that. Everybody who practices real close breeding of animals long enough, even with what Wehle calls ruthless culling, breeds themselves into a hole they can't get out of. One outcross cures all of it... and also, in your mind, "dirties" the gene pool again.
I know the probabilities and so do most high school biology students and have since the work of Gregor Mendel was published.
Also, the cause is not definitely known to be an inherited weakness.
Causes: Inguinal hernias may be genetic and present at birth (congenital) or they may be acquired and are often associated with trauma. The mode of inheritance has not been determined specifically but it is thought that many genes are involved in their transmission. In unspayed, middle-aged bitches, it may be caused by stretching of the abdominal muscles during pregnancy or atrophy of the abdominal wall due to old age.
Dr. Yves Gosselin, DVM (excerpt above in italics)
Last edited by Larry G on Thu Dec 20, 2007 7:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Windkist wrote: I have a couple of bitches also that look like they have a hernia but, its a little piece of fat where a hernia corrected on its own and that fat is on the outside of the muscle but, under the skin.
Leah
Funny but I have a little of that myself... and I'm not really sure there are abs under all that... well I think there used to be! (Known colloquially as a Budweiser tumor, among other things)
SouthernBeagles wrote:GOOD! Glad you studied at school. So WHY did you breed a dog with an OBVIOUS GENETIC FAULT???
I may not be able to clean the gene pool but I can PROMISE you I won't breed known faults!
Your carefree attitude is why the gene pool stays dirty.
She produced sound pups, one of which the buyer will not price. Who knows what they will throw? If bred properly, possibly more fine dogs. My vet (who just might know a teensy bit more than you) said go ahead and breed her... would you like to have his contact info so you can give him some grief?
Recessive genes for all kinds of health issues are hidden in all our kennels, and in our own bodies. We can't eliminate them in our dogs, any more that we can in the human population. We can only keep them hidden, we hope.
I hate to agree with the smart alleck.. but I think he might be right...its like a line of dogs that has a quarter terrier back several generations you can't breed it out it will always be there.
I would have to agree with SB though...you shouldn't breed a dog that might pass on something like that.
Ryan wrote:I hate to agree with the smart alleck.. but I think he might be right...its like a line of dogs that has a quarter terrier back several generations you can't breed it out it will always be there.
I would have to agree with SB though...you shouldn't breed a dog that might pass on something like that.
Well, let's say I had a male, and a lady down the street had a female of the same breed, so we let them mate. There was a defective pup in the litter. Are you and SB saying neither of those dogs should ever be bred again. or just not to each other?
Now about the price of dogs, my partner gave a nice beagle to a family that either couldn't or wouldn't pay for it. She said the little girl wanted it real bad and she was not going to spoil that child's Christmas. So, what kind of care will it get... will it ever see a vet.... get decent food... parasite control... anything? Probably not. It will be neglected, maybe not kicked unconscious like grandpa did, but neglected. That's why I don't sell pups for cheap, although I feel the price is not exorbitant. Mine are not pampered like some, but they eat well and sleep warm in a clean kennel and they don't stand in the pen for the summer. Any dog deserves that much.
I'm not sure what I would do, thats not really enough info,but I probably wouldn't risk it again.
As far as the way you describe pricing pups,the example you have is a lame excuse. IF you feel the dog will be mis-treated don't let it go to a home like that, period.
...i bet his family tree looks like a telephone pole....no branches...lmao...now we are even
