YOU MAKE THE CALL

[Bunnyblaster]

Strike the blue because that's what the rules state and because it could go either way by producing a rabbit or not. Or like has been said, fix the dog or get one that only barks when he is supposed to.

Danny I know he may be a great rabbit dog and that's a fault that any hunter could live with but at a trial there are rules for a reason. If you start making exceptions for this where will it stop??????? If my dog gets so happy he tries to mount every female for the first 5 minutes after being let off of the lead but after that he the best trial dog around should that be overlooked???

It sucks because it can help you or hurt you but any way you look at it it's not fair to you or the other dogs and handlers. JMHO

[danny vansickle]

I've seen a happy chirp cured 2 ways...

1.) Use a rope about two times the size of a normal lead.. Put one end through the collar ring and pull the two ends together(like doubleing the rope). When time to release the hound let go of one end. As the hound starts to run off, the rpoe is still dragging through his collar for about 10-12 feet. It distracts them just enough to sometimes eliminate the chirp.. It works..

2.) Carry the hound.Don't use the lead to release him. Wait about 5-10 seconds after the others are released and set him on the ground in the opposite direction. This also works..

never thought of number one,number two was my plan for this weekend.

thanks for the responses and the suggestions,as far as sendin him down the road,well,i think i will work with him a lil more,he can flat burn a rabbits arse up.

the wierd thing is that,he never does it out in the field when i am running,only at trials where there are other handlers.i have even turned him loose of the lead with 4 or 5 hounds out of the truck,nothing,not a whimper,chirp,nada,,,,

then go to a hunt,and he does it,that is why i know,it is not coldtrailing,he is just so compitition driven,it is like he knows he is at a hunt..........

o well,i will just keep tryin,but,i dont want to hear any snickering and sayin i am tryin to be like another guy packin a dog around in his arms,and no,i am not goin to dock his tail and name him max

[CHRIS WHITT]

but the judge cannot agree to do what the rule book says he must.. strike on blue unfortunate for green ..

Please copy and paste from the rules where it says if a hound makes a sound (any sound )it should be put on the clock , I thought they were supposed to bark (or hark ) in .
Page 17 in the Arha judges handbook says the definition :A strike is 3 or more BARKS from 1 hound after the hounds have been released in the field .No where does it give whine , fart or belch as an option . If the hound barks off the lead it should be put on the clock but if a hound whines off the lead or when getting hot it has not meet the guidelines for a strike . (unless the handler agrees that is the hounds bark )

[doubleb]

Chris if you say they have to give full bark before scored you have alot of dogs that cant score because i judged many dogs that never completly barked the whole cast or for that matter there whole life? someone give me the def. of a bark that will settle everything ! Barking is a noise most commonly produced by dogs. Woof is the most common representation in the English language for this sound (especially for large dogs), other than "bark." Other transliterations include the onomatopoeic ruff, arf, yip (for small dogs), and bow-wow.

[ANTHONY KERR]

Breaking the silence is enough for me. Where in the rule book does it say give the handler a choice ? It would just seem to open yourself for more protests to not score opening up three times no matter what it sounds like especially if it distracts another dog. I think there are exceptions like a dog getting hung in a fence or barking at another dog for trying to mount it.
My dogs are far from perfect, but last Friday I hunted a spot for two hours in the late afternoon. We never jumped a rabbit, I never heard a sound other than foot steps. That is the way I like it.
Strike Blue and minus 10 for not producing and handle them with 30 seconds to go.

[SilverZuk]

Bark and open are used as the same:
I've struck in dogs on barking off the lead strap and booger barking.
There have been times I've heard a dog yip (briar in ear) or make other vocalizations that I didn't consider open or a bark and didn't consider it counting toward a strike.

C. Strike
1. Definition: A strike is 3 or more barks from 1 hound after the hounds have been
released in the field.
a. If a hound catches a rabbit prior to giving mouth, this hound shall receive
strike and jump points.
2. Strike points must be awarded if the rabbit is jumped by a hound. Example:
Hound A jumps the rabbit from his setup. Even though Hound A did not bark on
the track before he jumped the rabbit, he is still awarded the strike points. In this
situation the hound shall receive 10 strike points and 30 jump points even though
he did not open until after the rabbit was jumped.
3. A hound that opens on the track and is struck by the judge does not have to jump
the rabbit to receive his/her 10 strike points, provided another hound jumps or
produces the rabbit within the allotted time of 3 minutes. Example: Hound A
barks 3 or more times on a track. Hound B harks in and barks and, in the
judgment of the judge, produces the rabbit. Hound A shall receive strike points.
4. Strike points can only be given once on each rabbit.
5. The hound that opened and has been struck by the judge shall receive 10 minus
points if no hound in the cast produces the rabbit within 3 minutes.
6. No strike or jump points shall be awarded if a rabbit is jumped by a judge,
handler, or spectator and the hounds are called in and placed on the track.
7. After a hound has opened (3 or more barks) and the judge strikes the hound, the
judge shall give the hound a maximum of 3 minutes to produce the rabbit before
he/she calls the track dead and asks the handlers to move their hounds to another
area. In this case the hound that was struck receives a minus 10 points.
8. The judge shall give the hound that is struck a full 3 minutes on that track no
matter what the other hounds in the cast do.
9. The judge shall award 10 points for a successful strike.
10. In the situation where the judge cannot determine which hound barked on the
strike, he/she may ask the handlers which hound barked. If the majority of
handlers agree on which hound opened first, the judge shall award strike points.
These may be minus or plus points depending on whether the rabbit is produced
within the allotted 3 minutes.

[SilverZuk]

Where in the rule book does it say give the handler a choice ?

It is not that handlers choice, it is a judgement call.
We all know when a dog barks or opens, and when other vocalizations are not.
The way Danny describes "chirp" I would lean toward counting that dog open.

[danny vansickle]

Where in the rule book does it say give the handler a choice ?

It is not that handlers choice, it is a judgement call.
We all know when a dog barks or opens, and when other vocalizations are not.
The way Danny describes "chirp" I would lean toward counting that dog open.

ok matt,what if you are judging this hound,and you hear his chirp,you put him on the clock for it,then a rabbit produces,then you here is huge,and i mean huge bawl mouth,while he is running the rabbit,he never and i mean never repeats the noise he does off the lead.

here is what i would do for any dog or any handler.....

if the handler advises me that the dog may happy whine or chirp off the lead,i will give the hound the benefit of the doubt one time only,now,if his running mouth is the same as the chirp or whine or even remotely close,i clock him from now on.if the dogs happy whine,chirp,ect is totaly different and he only does it when casted,i will not clock him......

why you ask,cause it is not fair to him to pull a minus when he clearly is not opening on a track,and second,it is not fair to the dog that acctually strikes in and deserves the strike.

it is a judgment call,a good fair judge can use their own judgement and tell a huge difference in this dog and most others when the handler is honest about it and informs them.

[scootersjill]

danny i tried trialin twice and seen it was not for me . i believe you said it best a good and honest judge would give the dog a break if you told him about it at the start. i run my hounds strickly for pleasure. i believe you and a few more are purty honest beaglers. but any time you get people competin for braggin rights you are goin to have
people to deal with.

[SilverZuk]

ok matt,what if you are judging this hound,and you hear his chirp,you put him on the clock for it,then a rabbit produces,then you here is huge,and i mean huge bawl mouth,while he is running the rabbit,he never and i mean never repeats the noise he does off the lead.

here is what i would do for any dog or any handler.....

if the handler advises me that the dog may happy whine or chirp off the lead,i will give the hound the benefit of the doubt one time only,now,if his running mouth is the same as the chirp or whine or even remotely close,i clock him from now on.if the dogs happy whine,chirp,ect is totaly different and he only does it when casted,i will not clock him......

why you ask,cause it is not fair to him to pull a minus when he clearly is not opening on a track,and second,it is not fair to the dog that acctually strikes in and deserves the strike.

it is a judgment call,a good fair judge can use their own judgement and tell a huge difference in this dog and most others when the handler is honest about it and informs them.

You know enough about me judging to know that I am fair.
The way you described it there, it would not be open.
As I said, I don't strike dog's on all vocalizations unless I feel the dog opened (barked).
It boils down to a judgement call, like some of the other things in LP.
It is at the judges descrection.
The rules don't give definition of bark, open, whine, chirp, whistle, or fart - they don't have to.
They expect that if you are judging, you know something about dogs.
You know when they are open, or barking.

[scootersjill]

ok matt,what if you are judging this hound,and you hear his chirp,you put him on the clock for it,then a rabbit produces,then you here is huge,and i mean huge bawl mouth,while he is running the rabbit,he never and i mean never repeats the noise he does off the lead.

here is what i would do for any dog or any handler.....

if the handler advises me that the dog may happy whine or chirp off the lead,i will give the hound the benefit of the doubt one time only,now,if his running mouth is the same as the chirp or whine or even remotely close,i clock him from now on.if the dogs happy whine,chirp,ect is totaly different and he only does it when casted,i will not clock him......

why you ask,cause it is not fair to him to pull a minus when he clearly is not opening on a track,and second,it is not fair to the dog that acctually strikes in and deserves the strike.

it is a judgment call,a good fair judge can use their own judgement and tell a huge difference in this dog and most others when the handler is honest about it and informs them.

You know enough about me judging to know that I am fair.
The way you described it there, it would not be open.
As I said, I don't strike dog's on all vocalizations unless I feel the dog opened (barked).
It boils down to a judgement call, like some of the other things in LP.
It is at the judges descrection.
The rules don't give definition of bark, open, whine, chirp, whistle, or fart - they don't have to.
They expect that if you are judging, you know something about dogs.
You know when they are open, or barking.

i would have to put you in with the goodins what you think cickle

[Scott Green]

So you dont minus a dog that is giving mouth that is happy barking when hunting?

Granted ARHA LP rules are very, very vague, especially things like this. They leave room for interpretation and everyone can have a different outlook on each situation.

But I feel as a judge you should protect yourself at all times. It is much easier to put a dog on the clock for giving mouth, regardless of how loud it was, rather than explain during a protest that the dog was making his "running" bark.

[danny vansickle]

yeah,matt is a good judge,and like he said,you have to know dogs,and any judge that knows dogs when they see the difference between a opening bark and a whine or chirp will do the right thing,yet,i am sure there are many that will put this dog on the clock out of pure spite,well,when they do,and the rabbit is up,they need to be consistent.


you have to know dogs to judge fairly,some guys think if they pass the test they are automatically ready to judge,i ran dogs for almost 2 years before i took my test,i wanted to get familiar with lp rules plus the style of dog running in it,i have always ran dogs,rabbit dogs,but competu=ition hounds and the way lp is set up is different from just bein able to sit on the tailgate and tell if a dog is doin somethin or not.

[scootersjill]

i would think if the handler or owner let it be known up front and everyone agreed why should they have a protest

[SilverZuk]

i would think if the handler or owner let it be known up front and everyone agreed why should they have a protest

It is really not up to the handler, it is entirely the judges descretion.
If the judge can look everyone in the eye and say "that wasn't a bark or opening" or "that dog opened" then that is the call.
If a protest happens and the MOH says I am wrong, I will cross that when I come to it.
I have to sleep with tonight with what I do today.