AKC rule change - May change Dog's Official Name

[Bev]

Just because a person sells a dog doesn't mean it's trash or unwanted. I have limited space and time, but if I want dogs of my own breeding, a litter of ten will push me over the limit of what I can reasonably do justice on my own. I will name them all and keep a couple. Some won't cut it -- they won't be world beaters, whether they were sold or remained in my kennel, but we won't know that for a while, and if one comes back to me because he's too fast for the new owner, all is well in the garden. Not all puppies/dogs sold are culls, some are -- so where you you draw the line? There ARE people out there who would be willing to make their own name based on someone else's hard work. There must be a line drawn that will apply in the most prudent and protective manner across the board. It can't be decided on a case-by-case basis...such as "My little boy doesn't like the name Elroy."

It looks as if AKC has given the breeder final say if the dog leaves their kennel named, so most of this is moot. It's more a matter of principal and respect. If the breeder says go for it, then go for it. If they don't want their breeding renamed, they may have other reasons you haven't considered, so why should they be made to feel badly about it? The way I see it, a person who wants to change a name, BOUGHT the dog already named. He knew the dog's name was Buford. If he can't live with that, he should buy one that hasn't been named. There are a lot of them out there. I don't care how far fetched the logic and reasons go, renaming a dog by removing the breeder's name, or adding a breeder's name without permission is taking the credit for someone else's work.

[Bev]

Insisting that your kennel name is on a dogs papers is ego. There is nothing wrong with being proud of a breeding program but don't try to justify it as anything else. When words like, ME,my kennel and pride are included in the reasoning, you can conclude there is ego involved.

I personally don't see anything wrong with ego, pride, and all other things that drive us to succeed, improve the breed, and make us happy with the result. Ego is not a 4-letter word. It's what keeps most beagle clubs afloat and the trophy companies in business. The only way I could see ego being bad is if it actually hurts another. A man is too proud to admit he doesn't make enough money, and he doesn't want his neighbors to know. He won't let his wife take a job because his neighbors will summize he can't support them, therefore, the kids don't get new shoes when needed, or proper medical care, etc. That is when ego is a damaging thing. Being proud of what you create and insisting your name stays on it is not "bad ego." In this argument it's a condition of sale, and if you don't agree then don't buy it. Breed your own. Nobody's got a gun to your head to buy a named pup.

[TC]

SR Patch,
Did you start the Patch line of hounds? If not who did? And since you are so against carrying anothers kennel name if you didn't start the line why are you carrying the kennel name now?

[HarleyPA]

Bev, I understand what you're saying about a litter. You can't keep em all sometimes. But, you made a choice. You chose those individuals that best suited what you want in a hound. That in essense is what makes your line of dogs. Your decisions about what makes a useul hound. So, if those other dogs didn't meet your standards, or their littermates fit your needs better, why do they deserve to still carry your kennel name? Even though, you have better in your possession, by your own judgement. Which is what defines your line of hounds.

I understand that there not all culls. I didn't say that. And it it was implied, I didn't mean it. My point being, you found dogs that were better than the ones you got rid of.

Pride is a sin.

[HarleyPA]

TC

I always kinda had a problem with that too. I just chaulked it up to you have to be a little off to own a patch anyway.

[TC]

I just chaulked it up to you have to be a little off to own a patch anyway.

Well I think we are all a little off just to own hounds but someone has to love the red headed step child of the dog world...

[Bev]

Harley, it's kinda hard to determine if I've kept the best when they're only 8 weeks old, lol. For evaluating field potential, it's kind of a crap shoot. You seem to be stuck on the idea that they were "discarded." If my bitch had 4-puppy litters instead of 10-puppy litters, we wouldn't even be having this conversation.

[HarleyPA]

I know what your saying.

I'm not stuck on the idea that you dicarded or culled anything. My point was you choose some to keep. Thats different than throwing some out. You CHOOSE the BEST at the time. It wasn't based on running abilities. It was personality, confirmation, coloration, whatever, it doesn't matter. You Choose. Thats what makes it your line, and worthy of the name. Its your choices that make it your line.

The key here isn't that you got rid of any of them. Its that you kept the best in your opinion at the time.

Do you see what I am saying?

It seems like you keep driving at a point, that you want your name on them good or bad. I think thats good. At least its your right to have it that way. I'd prefer to take credit for my champions and culls too. But, I'm not gonna spend money to absolutely, possitively have my name on it. Especially when, its easy to find out who bred what.

As before, its your money.

I think you can tell I've been bored since rabbit season was over.

Bev, I guess you said what I wanted to hear already. You said it was because of ego, pride, etc. And your right there's nothing wrong with that. There's no way out of this for me except by hurting anothers feelings, and I don't want to press it that far.

As for not selling anything here. I'd have no problem owning a Windkist or a Freedom run Beagle. Be proud too. I'd have to save for a couple years for a Windkist though

[Bev]

Heeee! Ya never know. If I keep my name on my dogs and accept the successes with the failures, perhaps I'll get to a point where people save up to buy one of my dogs. Afterall, that's what many of us want...a little recognition for our work, sweat, and dollars spent for producing something people want and appreciate. We do the same in our jobs. We can agree to disagree, and enjoy the things we agree on. Like Rolling Rock for instance. Some good things DO come out of Pennsylvania afterall.

[marr24]

SR Patch,
Did you start the Patch line of hounds? If not who did? And since you are so against carrying anothers kennel name if you didn't start the line why are you carrying the kennel name now?

I swear a question like this is asked every few months on this board and I'm pretty sure most who ask already know who started the Patch line (and if they don't they need to read up on the history of the hunting beagle in America).
I'm not answering the question as I'm sure Charles can handle it, but I will paste an answer given to a similar question by a board member a few weeks ago.

Re: BUYER BEWARE!
by Swampman on Wed Mar 12, 2008 12:30 pm

Rick, Shady,
I will agree with you on saying a dog is Warfield Red bred or Dingus Macrae ect. because those are individual dogs, and only one dog back in the pedigree. Especially when uninformed owners say their hound is Warfield Red bred just because it is red and white, when in fact Warfield Red was a tri-color hound named after a man named Red Warfield. I will say that there is no comparison with that and say Patch hounds. Patch is a strain or line of hounds that if bred true , go back to Willet. Common sense tells everyone that Willet has passed many years ago and that Willet himself did not breed todays hounds, but again if bred true, trace back to Willet. That doesn't mean that Willet would have made todays crosses either, just that they go back to him. Everyone asks what breeding is the hound that is for sale and most people say it is Patch bred or Branko bred etc. but that doesn't mean Willet or Branko bred them, just traces back to them. The papers state who the actual breeder is, and if you have problems with people selling hounds under the false pretenses that you bred them all you have to do is ask who the breeder is on the papers of that particular hound, and that will clear your name.

SwampSwampman

Posts: 69
Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2005 6:10 pm
Location: Wisconsin

by Swampman on Wed Mar 12, 2008 11:47 pm

Again, if I understand your mathmatical equation correctly, your trying to trace back to a single hound or two. My point was if you stay in the Patch line with no outcrosses to other strains such as Branko, Patch to Patch all the way back it is a Patch hound, not Willets per say but none the less a Patch hound. I also believe it is giving the original breeders of strains or lines such as Willet his due respect for making such an impact on a particular breed as the beagle. Same goes for Branko hounds, if you breed a Branko to Branko, with no outrosses to another strain, it is a Branko hound, not neccasarily from Branko Krpan himself. Its just a way of indetifying the hounds a person likes and has. And when it comes to naming, you can't call a Patch strictly Patch anymore, which I totally agree with. Everyone has their prefix though such as Sugar Ridge, Superior, BEB, etc, etc, which tells everyone it is a Patch bred hound, but also who bred it. I'm guessing too that Branko has his name registered with the AKC also so you can't use Branko's name. You know I'm just a Patch man who like most, not all, but most love the Patch for what they are known for, hard hunting all day hounds. Most of us don't trial, or trial very little because we are not interested in the flavor of the day hounds, we try to continue on what Willet has done for us and show our respect to him by keeping the line and name alive. Patch guys will come and go, but none will be remembered as Willet is remembered.

SwampSwampman

Posts: 69
Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2005 6:10 pm
Location: Wisconsin

[Bev]

I also believe it is giving the original breeders of strains or lines such as Willet his due respect for making such an impact on a particular breed as the beagle.

I find this an interesting statement in a thread where a few can't understand why the breeder of the first Beagle to ever win Westminster would like to keep her name on the hounds she produces. She's not asking anyone to do it 60 years from now like some do out of "respect for Willet"...just the ones that leave her yard today, and I think she deserves the same respect. And I also think she isn't the first breeder to put her signature on a line of dogs before releasing them to the public...in both field and show.

All of us are potential Willet Randalls and Leah Bertagnollis. We won't know for generations to come. Willet was just doing his thing, (with the help of friends, I might add) and probably had no idea people would be riding on his name for generations to come.

[Pine Mt Beagles]

MY ONLY PROBLEM IS THAT IF I LOOK AT A PED ON A DOG THAT I BRED OR SOME ONE CALLS AND ASK A QUESTION ABOUT A DOG .I CAN KNOW THE DOG WITHOUT DOING A LOT OF REASEARCH JUST MAKES IT EASIER .YOU KNOW DOG OWNERS CHANGE AND NOW NAMES CAN BE CHANGED BUT THE MOST IMPORTANT THING CANNOT BE CHANGED IS THE BREEDER WITHOUT BREEDERS WHERE WOULD WE GET DOGS .I AM NOT A BREEDER BUT IF TIME LAST'S LONG ENOUGH SOME DAY I MIGHT AND I WOULD NOT WANT THE NAME CHANGED ON ONE OF MY HOUNDS, IF I NAME IT..
KEEP'EM RUNNING
PINE MT BEAGLES

[TC]

It is not unethical for a puppy buyer not to use your kennel name on a puppy you decided to get rid of...

Say I bought a puppy from a popular line but didn't want the puppy to get favoritism at the trials over having this popular name, I wanted him to earn it on his own merrit... ... Should I have to put "the name" on the pup, or should I ethically be able to test the pudding...

Just my point SR Patch,
So you are saying that you keep the Patch name to honor whom the line came from correct? Well I also see those out there with their chest all fluffed up "I RUN PATCH HOUNDS" ok so what is the difference? Only thing is none of these folks started the patch line. But they kept the line name?

There is nothing wrong with the Breeder asking you to keep that name on the dog and there is nothing wrong with you keeping the name on the dog. The only reason I think folks would want to change the given kennel name on a dog is they are looking to take credit for the breeding of said hound.

[S.R.Patch]

SR Patch,
Did you start the Patch line of hounds? If not who did? And since you are so against carrying anothers kennel name if you didn't start the line why are you carrying the kennel name now?

Hi TC,
Hope you still love me and all this discussion don't make anyone mad or hard feeling...
I don't think Randall ever required anyone to use the patch name when registering their hounds they got from him, matter fact, I think he registered the name to keep people from using it on hounds he didn't breed. To use the patch name, you had to recieve the "ok" from him. You can't use the patch name today, Mike has it still registered with the AKC today, I'd guess the oldest ongoing registered kennel name todate. We all do use some form of the patch name as an "eye catcher" but you still have to go through the pedigrees to know what behind the breeding of the hound your looking at.
I'm not against carrying anothers kennel name. There is a way the breeder can keep his kennel name on a hound he breeds, I've done it many times but it cost you a few coins. If I don't want to spend the coins, the buyer has the right to name the hound as he wishes. Randall wasn't trying to make people put his name on his hounds but trying to keep it off hounds he didn't breed. If a hound caught his eye, he ask, what's the lineage on that little hound, not whats it's name. Names never meant what some wont to today, performance was the first order of priority at that time.
Some of these folks are just catching up to what's been going on for a very long time.
Experience is the best teacher, but she's painfully slow...
Gona head up to run hare today, wish us luck...I'll be thinking of all you...

ps...my reply to this post popped back at me cause you had just posted again... ... TC, I don't care what people do. I do beleive there is a difference in someone asking to use your kenne name on a hound, or you "telling" them they must use your kennel name.
Sugar Ridge Patch is not a AKC registered kennel name, I can't use ther word PATCH as it stands alone cause Mike has the registered AKC "PATCH KENNEL" and that is as it should be. Mike ain't tell'n us to use patch, he'd rather we didn't, but I remember a time when he ran the pedigree of a stud hound and himself said, "every hound in that hounds pedigree traces directly back to this kennel and we deserve some mention of credit for what he is". That was PennyRoyal Patch Casey(ole Stupe), he didn't care what the name was, it was the bloodline through the pedigree.
I guess i'll have to change my kennel name to Sugar Ridge Show Hounds so I can say, "I run Show Hounds"(chest all fluffed)...
pss...all in fun you know...

[TC]

SR Patch No Harm done here We still Love You
JC TC's Other half that ruffles Feathers LOL

"Show dogs Rule" "Patches Drool"