cold nose

bob huffman · Post by **bob huffman** » Tue Dec 30, 2003 10:17 pm

No sweat Joe. If pursuing the rabbit means trying to catch it, them the dog has a need he is trying to fulfill. The pursuit must be an effort. The dog extends a lot of energy and I guess if he is really a dog with a lot of desire to catch the rabbit, then it must be caused by a strong need within the dog. If it is indeed a need in the dog to catch the rabbit, then if he does in fact catch the rabbit by having the hunter shoot the rabbit, it would fullfil the need and become a reward. On the other hand, if the dog just has a strong need and desire to run the track, then catching the rabbit will not be a reward. His need and reward would be running the rabbit track and when the track ends with a dead rabbit, it would not enhance his desire to track the rabbit. I will try to be as nice as I can, but we are talking about 2 differant type of dogs. My method works on mine. I have seen many coonhounds the same way. I have seena lot of walker dogs that ran the track because they liked to track and didn't care much about the coon. Wouldn't hardly fight a coon when it was shot out still alive. On the other hand, my Plott hounds ran to fight and kill the coon and shooting one for them was a huge reward and enhanced their desire. I consistantly have seen that these type were easier to train and a higher percentage made hunting dogs. The desire to pursue and the desire to catch are 2 differant traits. A lot of fox hounds are the same way. For me, I will take the hair puller if I have a choice and all things are equal.

New York Hillbilly · Post by **New York Hillbilly** » Tue Dec 30, 2003 10:45 pm

Oh yeah one more thing about my hounds. They too pursue rabbits with the idea that they will tear it apart when they catch it. The desire I believe is bred into the hounds but with all the rough housing and taunting I do with my pups with a rabbit when they are little is what flips the killer switch in them. Most times if you do not beat them to the rabbit they will shred it, eat it or otherwise make it unidentifiable. I did have one that would retrieve but he died. The rest act like loonies when they think they can grab it so if you expect to eat the rabbits we shoot you had better be quicker to grab it then them.

If you need an idea of what this will look like just watch the Christmas movie with Ralfie in it and remember the scene when the Bumphus hounds grabbed the turkey off the table.

Doo da da Doo it's the Bumphus hounds owned by our Hillbilly neighbors.

I love that movie......Joe I can't wait to get together!
NYH

Joe West · Post by **Joe West** » Wed Dec 31, 2003 6:32 am

New York Hillbilly: Over the last couple of years I have been way too isolated up here on the mountain and have not even been a member of a club for some time nor have I even gotten to a trial last year to see what the other guy has. I have resolved to change that. Over the next couple of months we will be running with quite a few people.

I would like to get together and run hounds not only with you but others from the board in the coming months but not because you are PO'd because I had some fun at your expense on the board but just for the fun of it. We will both have a more enjoyable time that way.

There is nothing better then to run hounds hard and have fun. It's not so fun when your PO'd and trying to prove something.

Different hounds react differently to a shot rabbit. Some rip them apart and eat them. Some will retreive them and some will sniff them and not be interested and walk away to find another to run. Some smart ones knowing that the other hounds and you will try to take it away will even grab it up and try to run off with it to keep it themselves. Hounds can be trained to not eat the rabbit but those that like to are sometimes difficult to break of it.

I tried to access the movie but have been unsuccessful so far.

Joe West · Post by **Joe West** » Wed Dec 31, 2003 6:43 am

Bob: No I don't beleive we are talking about two different things. Pursueing is running to catch. The thing is hounds aren't stuid; they know the difference between them catching the rabbit and it already being dead before they get there. Now of course some times when they run one stiff it is already dead when they get to it but they know they caused the death. I have had hounds that would run down their rabbit and kill it instantlyand then just wool it until I got to it. Some would even stand guard over it and not let the other hounds or other people touch it until I got there. They didn't tear it up but they had no less desire then the hounds who would eat the rabbit. We are not talkingabout two different things but just different experiance.

kjohns · Post by **kjohns** » Wed Dec 31, 2003 10:50 am

A couple great topics and debates the last month or so.

I have to agree with Joe, that the dogs certainly do talk to us. You have to understand their language. Do they have as big a vocabulary as the english language? No, but a lot bigger than most people give them credit for. They will tell you what you need to know by watching them.

I do think shooting the rabbits in front of the pup gives them more desire. And I don't think there is a whole lot of difference to them whether they catch it or it has been shot. They are pack animals and to them we are part of the pack. They go out hunting as a pack, not as individuals. 3 of the 4 dogs I run with most, will get far more excited on the line after hearing the gunshot. I've watched it over and over. They know when they hear that shot, their is a chance they are going to come up on a dead rabbit soon. (Although if it was me that shot that chance is slim) An easier example of this is search and rescue dogs. In conditions where the dogs are not able to find any live people, the handler will sometimes have to have someone else hide so the dog will find them alive and won't get depressed or have that feeling of failure.

New York Hillbilly · Post by **New York Hillbilly** » Wed Dec 31, 2003 11:54 am

Joe,
Lets get something straight at the start. I am not PO'd as you say. It has happened to me once in the past that for whatever reason unless I plug the correct little facy (

) things in people can get the wrong idea of where my head is at. I want it clear that I am in no way upset and if you in some way attempted to make me feel that way it was poor attempt because I never saw it coming. But as I have said in the past I sometimes do miss the punch lines in a joke. And given your level of intellect I am certain it would be easy for you to fly one over my head. Now with that having been said let me also clear something else up. My calling you and your hounds out to run is more about $hiting or getting off the pot. I sit back and read these posts and recognize that at times things are said tounge in cheek and some good natured pokes and jabs are exchanged but I can't believe how you come across. Perhaps living so isolated up on top of what ever mountain you are on as you describe yourself as doing gives you the feeling of being so lofty. Maybe that is why you seem to (at least to me) come off as speaking down to everyone as if they were clueless little kids and if they only will sit and listen to the all knowing teacher they could perhaps learn something. NEWS flash....I know of only one man to go to the top of the mountain and learn anything that he could teach me and it was not you! Now should you come down off the mountain you are on carrying a couple of stone tablets with "your rules" etched in them as the last man I mention I will be glad to sit quietly and listen to you. Until that time I would prefer a less condescending attitude. Unless I miss my guess there are at least a few on this board that must sit and shake their heads when reading the stuff you post. It was for that reason I felt it would be interesting to get together and run and I plan to press this issue. It is not so we can be buddies or to have my hounds kick your hounds a$$e$. I figure that it is a no lose situation for me and mine because it is not a big deal to get beat by the best. But if mine are doing the butt kicking (and I believe they will or I would not even go here) it will be a mighty big shot to one man I know's blow and bluster. I have already stated many times in the past that I do not have all the answers, that my hounds are rough at times , have and may run deer or fox, cold trail according to your standards and will chew up a rabbit. But I am not embarrased to drop them with anyones hounds and will do it if you want to get together. They are not all bad and if you need to hear it from others ask Nate Johnson (BJK), Rich Smoker, or any of the guys that have run against them in ARHA LP and PP trials In Pennsslvainia, New Jersey, Ohio, Indiana, New York. They do have their share of hardware that was earned in tough conditions and in places where they were unknown until we left. I will call you with my schedule. In the meantime relax you did not upset me.
Peace,
NYH

bob huffman · Post by **bob huffman** » Wed Dec 31, 2003 12:41 pm

The desire to pursue and the desire to catch are 2 differant behaviors or needs. One dog is pursuing as a means to catch or obtain the rabbit and the other is pursuing as a means to fulfill his need to pursue. The pursuit behavior has 2 differant motivations in these cases. Some people drive a car because they like to drive. Some people drive a car as a means to get to a specific destination such as work. Here we have 2 identical behaviors with 2 totally differant motivations. Same in dogs that exhibit the pursuit behavior. Some dogs pursue the rabbit to catch and kill it or eat it. Some dogs pursue a rabbit because they like to pursue rabbits. Some people eat to stay alive. Some people eat for various other reasons. 2 Identical actions caused by 2 totally differant needs. I could go on and on with examples of the same dynamic to illustrate this point, but hopefully everyone but you know who understands this by now.

New York Hillbilly · Post by **New York Hillbilly** » Wed Dec 31, 2003 1:24 pm

Bob,
I do and have always agreed with your take on this. I have beagles that run with the intention to catch the rabbit. My inlaws owned a beagle/basset that would slowy run a cottontail from sun up till sun down with almost never a loss. All by himself sniffing and following along in his own little world happy as a clam howling with those long drawn out bawls until he would eventually tire and return to thr porch to curl up and sleep. There was a dog that loved the smell of a rabbit!
NYH

Steve C. · Post by **Steve C.** » Wed Dec 31, 2003 1:29 pm

Interesting observation, Bob, and it makes a lot of sense. Many of my hounds seem motivated by the urge to chase, more so than actually catching. In fact, one of my best hounds will not touch a wounded but running hare if the hare freezes. She will make him run again apparently to enjoy the chase. Having said that, she is not content merely to follow tracks, she makes every effort to get up close on the game. It seems that sighting the quarry is the goal for her rather than the kill. Others in my pack want to taste victory, yet they resist the temptation to cheat the line when they'd be better served to do so. I doubt that there is much actual "thinking" involved here- more a matter of doing what the brain is programmed to do. I know that habits learned while they're young tend to remain habits, so I always make the extra effort to expose them only to clean running hounds while in their early stages of running.

blackdirt beagles · Post by **blackdirt beagles** » Wed Dec 31, 2003 1:30 pm

heres an 8 month old pup (the black and tan). first time gunhunted over and got 2 today. she seems to be a hard hunter, but when we shot these over her and let her get a bite, she went nuts!! she was pumped. running is great for dogs (thats not a real big secret

), but show them some fur and watch them take it a notch further in intensity. im not sure how someone could disagree with that, unless they dont hunt much and say that in their defense.
http://www.hunt101.com/img/084208.JPG

bob huffman · Post by **bob huffman** » Wed Dec 31, 2003 3:47 pm

Now that we know the reasons for the pursuit behavior, it should be said that a dog can have both needs. The ones that like to track to get the rabbit should also have a desire to track the rabbit because they like to track. In other words you have both traits in the same dog. It is not an all or nothing situation. The person that drives their car to get to work could also enjoy driving for the joy of it. Same in a dog and it is a good deal to have both traits in the same dog. They love to track for its own sake but also are pursuing the rabbit itself and not just running the track for its own sake. There are many degrees and combinations of this. I have had dogs that seemed to have no clue as to what a rabbit was after it was shot. They look at you like why are you showing me this piece of fur. Most beaglers have had the same experience most likely. I have also had several blow up that were like this but never had one blow up that liked to catch the fur.

bob huffman · Post by **bob huffman** » Wed Dec 31, 2003 3:50 pm

Brian, to avoid spreading the post out you can lower the pixel size on your picture. I want to breed a bitch to your best producing male sometime in the future. Spring of 2005. Thanks Bob

blackdirt beagles · Post by **blackdirt beagles** » Wed Dec 31, 2003 4:01 pm

bob - im lazy

so i took the pic off and left a link to it instead

. ive got a very nice male you can use. id like to keep a pup out of some of your stuff. sounds like what i like in a dog.

warddog · Post by **warddog** » Wed Dec 31, 2003 4:43 pm

I believe that pursuit is the same behavior but the motivation for it is several entirely different things at different times. I have watched cats pursue or stalk a mouse or bird only to play with it and then let it go. I have also watched them pursue, kill and eat them. IMO animals pursue for different reasons, some to eat, some to play by which I believe they are actually just practicing to keep or increase their skills so as to be successful when they do have to pursue to survive. Pursuit is an instinct for survival. In the wild animals don't get 3 hots and a cot and must be self reliant. I think the STANDARD for this would be eat or be eaten.

Chris · Post by **Chris** » Wed Dec 31, 2003 7:51 pm

New York Hillbilly wrote:My calling you and your hounds out to run is more about $hiting or getting off the pot.

I like your style NYH -- pretty straight-forward and to the point.

I, too, dislike the condescending way in which Joe's theories are presented as fact.

It's not difficult to have a pretty good idea of who knows what's going on, by listening to people talk. I can invision enjoying myself at hunting camp with guys like you and pete and others that are down-to-earth and have learned through experience in the woods. Guys that know what works because we've seen what doesn't. This standard for dogs that's supposed to be the be all and the end all is just a document. Much more impressive than a document are real experiences. I can't fathom some of the things I hear people nitpicking about, considering how few real gundogs are around. Pete's got it absolutely right: if anyone wants to talk about faulty, then let's all get on the 'I hate dogs that can't run today' bandwagon. But instead of that, we have armchair theorists trashing gundogs against this faceless standard of how it 'should' be done. Much of it is such a bunch of bunk. Go rabbit hunting in the worst conditions you can find and if some cold-trailing is all you've got to put up with you're in pretty darned good shape. I've rabbit hunted roughly half the days of December, and by-and-large the conditions have been pretty lousy. We've had some good days, but just as many poor days, where the scenting has been lousy. The reason 95 out of 100 dogs don't have the goods for tough running isn't because of the fault of cold-trailing; it's the fault of lack of nose -- pure and simple. If a dog has the nose there are overwhelming odds that he's going to breach the standard in the mouth department somehow or another. If you get hung up on the theories and the standard you'll catch frostbite wondering why your 'faultless' hotnosed dog can't make a full circle. I'd like for the dude that wrote the standard to walk a mile in my shoes this time of year.

There are theories and there is practice -- let's all do everyone a favor and keep the two separate.

I'm anxious to hear your rundown of any gettogether with Joe, but I really doubt it'll happen.

Peace