cold nose

[haredog]

Hey guys,I'm going to keep taking out my cold nosed beagles and hunt them as I really do enjoy them and the way they run.I shoot rabbits in front of them and to me that is the bottom line.If somebody else like Joe wants to run a diffrent type of beagle thats up to him.If he wants to put down our type of beagle than so be it.We at least know better and he sounds like he never will understand.Your all just wasting time[Joes term ] trying to convince him otherwise[he can run forms I want to run rabbits].We'll just keep running our cold nosed beagles and enjoy them.Take care and god bless.Sincerly,Haredog

[Joe West]

New York Hillbilly: That's not PO'd? Perhaps the reason I come across that way to you is because we don't agree.

[Joe West]

Bob: "Pursue: follow with intent to overtake, capture or do harm." That is the same as running to catch; and is a requirement of a beagle.

I am having a hard time understanding your explanation of the difference in the motivation of a hound who purues his game. New York Hillbilly's inlaws is easy to understand and the Beagle/basset was not pursueing with an animated desire to over take it's game but was mearly following.

Your wording is throwing me off because pursueing is running to catch. Now there is a difference in a hound who persues his game and a hound who is happy to just follow it but I don't understand your meaning here.

[Joe West]

Bob: Do you mean some hounds are motivated by the chase, the act of pursueing their game but not the kill. Other hounds are motivated by the kill but not the chase and derive their enjoyment only from the kill and not the chase itself, and still others are motivated by both the chase and the kill?

[Steve C.]

Most guys I know will change their ideas of what makes a good dog several times during their lives, and along with it, their level of tolerance for fault. Nose must be taken for granted, without it, you have little to work with. Really good nose is hard to find, but not THAT hard to find. Most hunters understand that there will be some days when the hounds simply can't run well enough to produce game, and they accept that. On these days, hounds with faulty mouth won't produce any more game than the hound who doesn't tongue out of place, they'll just bark around the woods more. If someone has a dog who cold trails or tongues a line and produces game when mine can't, then I want to know more about this hound. I have a few who don't use their mouth according to standard and will cold trail but they produce LESS game than those who have earned the right to live out their lives in my kennel. I won't sell these faulty dogs because they are not reliable hunting dogs. They simply are a distraction to the really good dogs. I haven't seen a hound yet who could produce game by cold trailing when these really good hounds couldn't. The only difference is that they don't waste time by playing around with an old line. If there is game in a particular piece of woods, they will find it in short order. Unless a guy wants to hunt in the arctic circle, the conditions where I hunt are just as tough as anywhere. We have days when the dogs can't get it done but they are few and far between. This is in no way bragging on my dogs- two of them are from the bloodline I'm working with but bred by someone else. I'm no different than Chris or NYH or Brian in that I want dogs who can do the job every time out or as close to it as possible. I've found a few, but it's a small number compared to those that haven't made the cut. I don't cull out good dogs who don't use their mouths exactly according to standard, but it sure is noticeable when I run them with the hounds who DO use their mouths properly. It's easy to complain about dogs with no nose, a lot of work to do the homework required to find the ones with great nose. Most of the "snow hounds" I've heard guys brag about fail to measure up. A few do, and I try to get a pup from them or breed to them. It's been a LOT of work and many years to find these good dogs; hours on the phone, long trips to see for myself, attending winter trials and so on. What I've found is precious and I invite anyone to come see for themselves, as 2 fellows from NY are going to do this weekend. They have a couple of great hounds, and I'm anxious to see how mine measure up to theirs. Some condemn the trials and the dogs who compete in them, and thereby ignore the best resource available to find hounds who suit their needs. Not many may suit them, but I guarantee some will. If you're totally content with what you have, that's OK, but don't complain that there isn't enough nose in beagles today because I know guys in many states and Canadian provinces who can show you otherwise. But some of you would rather scoff at the idea than spend the time to actually go see them. That's OK too, 10 years from now this argument will still be going on while plenty of guys will be shooting game off these "rule book" hounds you so despise. Lew Madden was not God, but to claim that any of you understand hounds better or logged more hours running hounds is an insult to the man and more importantly a detriment to improvement of the breed. We may not have as good hounds as years ago, but it's because of people refusing to acknowledge the solid good sense of the standard, not because of the standard itself. Denial is the biggest impediment to learning. There, my little rant.

[Chris]

Most hunters understand that there will be some days when the hounds simply can't run well enough to produce game, and they accept that. On these days, hounds with faulty mouth won't produce any more game than the hound who doesn't tongue out of place

Are you saying that of the dogs you've witnessed run when other good dogs couldn't smell the track, that the majority of them had clean mouth all year and never 'faultily' popped off before a rabbit was 'jumped'?

It's easy to complain about dogs with no nose, a lot of work to do the homework required to find the ones with great nose.

You're right; it's easy to complain because no-nosed dogs are everywhere. Over the past couple of year I've watched and hunted over literally hundreds of dogs, from all over the country, many of the FC's, and the one constant is lack of nose. Inasfar as looking: I've been all over hell's creation looking. Many guys reading this have followed along on my comical expeditions to find these dogs I hear about. About a year ago I even tried to get to see old Joe West. My success in finding it has been minimal. I've even resorted to offering a financial incentive for all these wonder-dogs to come out of the woodwork (http://milleroutdoors.com/winter_challenge.htm). A synopsis of this offer should be running in this month's American Beagler Magazine for those that don't have a computer.

I don't have great dogs, but I can't seem to find any better. If anyone knows of anyone with these big-nosed, perfect-mouthed dogs with no other major faults then please send them to the page above and/or contact me. Since I don't have the luxury of picking and choosing my days to run, I'll be eternally greatful for any info. in regards to real big nose.

but don't complain that there isn't enough nose in beagles today because I know guys in many states and Canadian provinces who can show you otherwise. But some of you would rather scoff at the idea than spend the time to actually go see them.

Now we're talking. I'm all ears. Please have them contact me or visit this page above, or send me their contact info. If they can't come here, I don't mind some traveling (headed thru NY to OH in 2 weeks, in fact) and this is the time of year to see it.
Here's my contact info:
telephone: 603-335-5279
e-mail: mail@milleroutdoors.com
(I can even be contacted by smoke signal for anyone without a phone or e-mail )

Lew Madden was not God, but to claim that any of you understand hounds better or logged more hours running hounds is an insult to the man and more importantly a detriment to improvement of the breed.

I'd never make that claim. But the claim I will make (well, more of a question, I guess) is that if that standard is so great, why are so many of the champions under that standard not complete rabbit dogs? And why can such a small percentage of them keep a rabbit going steady when temps get below 10 degrees and the snow isn't fresh?

I'm just a guy wanting to be able to shoot rabbits off well-rounded dogs that can run steady 95 out of 100 days of winter (I'll accept 5 no-scent days, but I think any more than that is excuses). I've gotten to about 80 or 85 days with the best I've been able to find, and I'd be greatful to anyone who can show me the dogs that can make up that difference in tough condition running.

[bob huffman]

Joe your definition of pursuit could be right and it wouldn't matter in regard to tracking a rabbit. If it is correct then when the hounds want to catch or overtake and then they did, it would act a s reward to them and increase the behavior that achieved the reward. Either way you lose your argument about not shooting rabbits for yound dogs to increase their desire. Reward reinforcement increases behavior levels and this is a scientific law. Pursuit is like arguing. Some people argue to prove a fact and some argue just to be arguing!

[New York Hillbilly]

Joe: Perhaps! And no I am not PO'd if you want I'll send you some flowers. But not before we run!!!!!

Steve C. : You see where you said that some guys just accept the fact that there are days when the hounds just cannot produce game? That is where I get myself in trouble or should I say at least frustrated. While I know there are such days I just cannot make myself "accept it" and maybe that is just a personality flaw in me. On those tough days and I have had plenty of them my cold nosed bitch has been able to get things going when the others could not. Now there have been days when even she could not seem to do it and it would be pick,pick,pick but those have been the most extreme conditions. I will also readily admit that at her age she has lost alot of her edge but the old grey faced girl has rarely left me with an empty game bag. Unless of course I kept shooting and missing.. and I will also admit to having been guilty of that.

Chris: Not to be nosy but where in Ohio are you going this time?
I will state for the record that I know you have gone more out of your way to find a hound than anyone I know. And if in your travels you have not found "it" yet it ain't out there. Or it's just that I'm really secretive!
Gotta go eat hoilday meal with family and then go to work. Have at it guys.
Peace,
NYH

[Joe West]

Bob: I know my definition of pursue is right because I copied it word for word right directly from the dictionary. You are a charactor though I'll give ya that much. I beleive Bob that you orignally said that hounds were not required by the standard to run to catch their game. But anyway don't shy away from this because there are a lot of points that need clarification. You did not answer my request for clarification on your thoughts about the motivation of hounds. Once you clarify that we can proceed. And no Bob I don't loose because the hounds, unless they are dense as lead, know the difference between shot game and game they killed. Once you clarify your position I will drive some points home. I still don't know for sure what your position is though and will wait for your responce as you've made some good points and will probably make more good ones when you respond. You have brought up a very interesting and important topic I think and it will be a pleasure to explore it with you.

[Steve C.]

Well, I just typed out a post that I thought would be helpful to those who, like me, are searching for those hounds with great nose who can run day in and day out. Unfortunately I was interrupted and lost the entire post when it timed out. The gist of it was that to NYH, I sincerely believe that you have a good hound if she can produce game when other good dogs can't. I've had a few like that who I bred to studs who had exceptional nose and very clean mouth but had mixed results. By all means, when you have a hound who pleases you and accounts for game, make no apologies whether it's a flawed gem or not- it's still a gem. For me, the biggest thrill in beagling is taking a good female and attempt to improve the next generation by making the cross that overcomes her weaknesses and turns out better than her. Doesn't happen very often though. It takes years to build that solid foundation of brood bitches who can produce consistently. I'm nowhere near there yet. Chris, the quality of stock that we see winning trials is not a reflection of the standard, it's a reflection of the failure by some to apply the rule book. Too many judges don't hunt and have only the experience of running at "the club" and tend to go with the current fad. Few serious hunters become judges and the sport suffers because of it. That's OUR fault. On the other hand, some legendary hounds were "meat dogs" long before they ever saw a trial. Straight Arrow was owned by a hunter and it took a long time for Terry Perry to allow his owner to let him take him to the trials. He was unbelievable on snow. Ranger Dan belonged to a market hunter in Nova Scotia who relied on the dog for much of his winter income. The only reason he was trialed was because his owner didn't have to pay for his feed during the closed season. These guys didn't give a hoot about trials- they just knew that these dogs produced game when no other dog could. I have no doubt there are countless others who lived out their lives with no one ever knowing how good these dogs were. I found the hounds who suited me best were from the far north. Most of these came from Nova Scotia where they see plenty of extreme conditions. Lately I'm looking at hounds from Newfoundland. I'm sure that the Upper Peninsula of Michigan and Wisconsin have dogs who would perform fine for us. This goes for upstate NY as well. You probably won't find these hounds in a stud ad or being promoted because the owners aren't looking for the hassle of dealing with the beagling public, but there are exceptions. The only way I've found anything that I liked was by being fortunate enough to form friendships with other guys who would gladly sacrifice ribbons for hounds who could run all winter. What they tell me they've found is always in confidence because they know that there's a lot of jealousy in beagling and don't want to explain why they bred to this one rather than that one. Sometimes we find something by dumb luck. The best dog I have in my kennel right now was given to me by a gentleman who had two knee replacements and could no longer handle this 10 year old Canadian champion. I had pestered him to register the dog with AKC so that I could breed to him and he wound up giving me the hound. I knew he was good, but he's twice the hound I'd hoped he'd be. Of course he was never promoted so no one breeds to him. A shame because he's really outstanding, even with his arthritic hips. There's no guarantee that he'll produce hounds like himself, but he's sired several champions who do very well on snow, and they in turn have produced champions. He'll soon be gone and with him the opportunity to improve what we lack. It's hard to locate what you're looking for when people don't know you well. Most folks are a bit guarded when they don't know the guy that's asking all these questions about their dogs. I won't even try to make a recommendation because many people feel that recommending one dog is the same as badmouthing theirs. You are probably doing the right thing in your search. Heck, I've been doing the same thing for over a decade. Keep your eyes and ears open and run with as many folks as possible.

[WELLS WOODS]

I believe the reason so many people are against the AKC rulebook is because they have probably been introduced to AKC field trials in some associations that have misinterpreted the rulebook and don't promote a complete gundog. I don't blame them for being critical because some of these trials that claim to go by the standard are a complete joke. They have left out some very important things such as: hounds must search for game; no hound can be too fast as long as the trail is accurately followed; hounds must pursue with the intent to overtake; etc.
The Mid-West Gundog Association runs by the AKC rulebook and they promote a dog you can hunt with. Check out their website and find the licensed trial schedule and come join us. It sounds like some of you guys have dogs that would do very well in these trials.

[Chris]

Chris: Not to be nosy but where in Ohio are you going this time?

Leaving here on the 11th to rabbit hunt in NY for a couple of days, then headed to Cincinatti to participate in the Cincinatti Hunting & Fishing Show from Jan. 15th thru 18th. Will be in booth next to Bev. Info about the show is here -> http://www.hartproductions.com/HuntingF ... index.html
Anyone in the area, feel free to stop by booth #3106 and say hi. Would like to meet any and all of you.

Also, I'm happy to see anyone's good stud if they're within a reasonable drive of my travel route (NH to NY to OH). Contact me and if we can coordinate schedules I'm happy to see any stud dogs with huge nose that can get the job done all winter long without any excuses. I've got a bit of extra time on each end of the Cincinatti show. Not interested in how great the dog's good days are, or how fast he is; only that he doesn't have any/many bad days.

[Don L]

Chris ,what are you going to be talking about in your siminar

[snowshoehareguide]

I'd ever read on a beagle message board and I can't help but like anyone that can make me laugh like that! At least you realize that we can disagree without becoming mortal enemies.

yup - me too... steve c ....... i like to see a beagle pup that wants to catch that rabbit bad.... the ones that did .thats how i got them started was dragging a fresh killed rabbit a few times... but like steve ive seen good dogs that didnt care. i have seen that same attitude that ive spoiled there fun in beagles and foxhounds..never seen this in tree hounds or even foxhounds used on coyote.... pete

[Guest]

To the folks that live in areas of extreme conditions,have any of you tried the fish creek line and if so what did you think of it.Do the fish creek hounds of the Vincents compare favorably with the fish creek hounds of Clarence Jone's time.Can these hounds get it done in the conditions that you guys often describe?

J.Murphy/Murphy's Kennel