Puppy Mills Good or Bad

[Huddie]

WELLs WOODS, what if a person BOUGHT 10 or more champions. He had these champions kenneled out all over for stud. He never ran them or used them for hunting. He used them to breed some of his own bitches, that were also kenneled out all over the country. He never actually kept and trained any of these puppies just sold them. Would that be considered a puppymill?

[WELLS WOODS]

If this person is buying and breeding hounds that are proven in the field and have a pedigree with hounds that were proven in the field, then I see nothing wrong with it; there is a good chance these breedings will produce good dogs.
When he starts breeding hounds that have poor field quality just because he has a market for pups, then I consider that a puppy mill.

[Huddie]

How can you breed dogs if you never saw them run? That person would have to be breeding paper wouldn't they? You said"People should never breed any dogs based only on pedigree or because the hound is related to a great hound"
I guess if I was breeding beagles for over 25years and never produced anything good I would probably start buying finished hounds also. I just don't think I would buy that many champion males and very few champion females. Like you said "If the owner of the stud breeds low quality females of his own just to sell pups then he has a puppy mill, but if someone else breeds thier poor quality bitch to a field champion just to sell pups, the owner of the bitch is to blame."

[Koontzy]

I didnt rad everything, but was wondering also, what about puppy mills that breed just for pets? I know a few places that breed beagles not as hunting dogs, but as a household pet, or just a friend for a woodlands kid to play with...

[WELLS WOODS]

Like I said as long as he's breeding hounds that are proven in the field(sire and dam) and that have ancestors that are proven in the field, I think this can help the breed. He may only be in it for the money and may haven't seen his own dogs run at all, but that doesn't mean the dogs won't produce well if they are good quality and have proved this either under the gun or in some gundog field trials.

[Boomer]

As DarrinG said, HSUS is a piece of crap. But they do get involved in puppy mill busts, and just because they stand for things the rest of us don't doesn't mean they're lying about everything. Unfortunately, they'll use the info they have about puppy mills for the wrong purpose, since their goal is to end intentional breeding and dog ownership completely. I don't know what they have on their website, because every time I go over there, I get too worked up!

There are two kinds of puppy mills, in my mind. One type is the commercial breeders and those who mass-produce puppies for resale or research, and their breeding stock basically spends their whole life in cages (sometimes in deplorable conditions). The other type is the kind of "hobby breeder" that breeds an excess solely to make money. Both are driven for profit and cut-corners when possible. Their concern is not bettering the breed, or even maintaining the breed. A stud beagle is a stud beagle, and a beagle broodbitch is a beagle broodbitch. Titles, health, working ability, etc, don't really mean anything - but they'll be happy to charge an extra premium and brag if their stock has some titles or is registered. It's almost funny, but I've been to websites of kennels that I think fit the puppy mill category (average of 2-3 litters/month) who tell potential buyers about avoiding puppy mills.

I think that breeding for pets is fundamentally wrong. In 99% of the breedings you have between good stock, there will be "pet quality" puppies. There's no reason to intentionally breed for them, especially with beagles. Now maybe if it is a potentially vicious breed, you can have breeders that pay special attention to temperament, etc. But with beagles, they're almost always good-natured and easily adaptable to being pets if they aren't good hunting dogs or whatnot. The fact of the matter is that there is a HUGE oversupply of beagles that are pet-quality that end up in shelters/gas chambers/etc, because they're not good enough as hunters. Since that is the case, then why should other people bother breeding beagles specifically as pets?

[daustin]

When I posted the link for HSUS I also said to look for the pictures. I said nothing of what they do or don't stand for. I think they are off to one side pretty far but the pictures don't lie! That was they entire purpose behind the link. Personally I don't much care for them, but when it comes to discussions about Mills they are a good reference for folks to *see* what we are talking about.

Dane

[AlabamaSwamper]

Would you consider trialers who raise several litters a year then discard the ones that are unsuitable for trialing a puppy mill.
I doubt if any "puppy mills" did more to harm the beagle as a hunting hound than did the brace trialers and show breeders.

yes, I consider this a puppy mill. No need to breed litter after litter after litter.

How many litters can one person breed fairly. How many dogs can one man hunt. Unless you are retired and run every day, surely no more than 15 or maybe 20 but that is stretching it.

*****is a good example of a puppy mill from everything I have read and anyone that just breeds according to titles is a puppy mill. Anyone that breeds a dog that can't hunt because of her pedigree is a puppy mill and anyone that intends on making money off their dogs is a puppy mill.

Puppy mills are bad and should be burned to the ground and I don't give a gay rat's a$% how many FC's they have in their kennels. I refuse to buy anything from anyone that has more than 4 or 5 litters on the ground at one time because there is no way that person is breeding for theirselves without the thought of making money.

Yes I know of a few in the south and NO I would never buy a darn thing from them. Ever wonder why there are so many darn styles of Branko dogs. A truly good kennel will produce dogs that run real consistent with each other no matter what cross it is out of in that kennel.

Something else, the next time someone calls me about a female and ask me when she was in heat last and how many pups and this and that because they want her to breed is going to get the cussing of a lifetime and I will post their name on every board.

[Guest 4]

So F KING what if somebody wants to make some money. I would rather buy the puppies from a mill as to buy some of the trash that some people put on here. So I don't think that there is anything wrong with it. HAVE A NICE DAY!!

[MasonsBeagles]

Looks like the topic struck a nerve with Guest 4 lol


Guest 4 this is not Better Beagling Q and A board. So chill out, and lets hear a positive on puppy mills.

[Guest 4]

How much more positive can you get!!!!!

[daustin]

Let's calm this one down a little so that maybe we can have a constructive conversation.

One note some of you might want to think about. There is a difference between a Commercial breeder and a puppymill.

Most definitions of a puppymill include horrid conditions, no care for pedigree, and breeding every cycle. Along with not knowing who sired what litter and never putting the dog actually on the ground (living it's life on wire).

If someone wants to make money on their dogs and take good care of their dogs then fine. We are in America and that is your right! If it wasn't for the commercial breeder then the price of a good dog would be out of sight. Think about this for a second - if all "good" breeders had one litter a year would that fill the demand of John Q Public? And since it wouldn't then naturally the price would go up. It is simple supply and demand theory from high school.

Most of us here would be considered horrible people by some other breed groups because our dogs live outside. It is all a matter of perspective.


Dane

[AlabamaSwamper]

Guest4, I guess you run a mill. I can tell you I would never buy any of your worthless pot licking peanut pushers. Besides, anyone that truly gives the pups care and raises them right cannot make money, or atleast not enough to even bother with it.

You are an idiot so go run some of your worthless brood bitches. maybe they'll run a sparrow for ya.

Better yet, go us a river for talking about puppy mills because that sounds like what you are doing.

[saddle-up]

I guess I am more concerned with the "conditions" at some of the so-called puppy mills. Also, if you have too many dogs...there's just not time for all of them. Why would anyone want to have so many pups that they don't get to interact with them...learn their personalities, how they hunt...etc?

I just don't get it.

I'm tired of everything in this world being about money, profit, etc.

The fun we have with our beagles is priceless!

[New York Hillbilly]

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