Breeder VS. Pedigree

[Briarhoppers]

Just a topic for discussion. Say you are looking to purchase a new pup for your kennel. Do you put more stock in the Breeder listed on the papers or the Sire and Dam in the pedigree?

[Daniel]

I put down breeder cause if you got a dishonest breeder then who's to say that the pedigree is even right. A buddy of mine and someone who's taught me a lot about hounds told me that a pedigree is only as honest as the breeder is, and that's absolutely correct. But if we're talking about dealing with different breeders that you have confidence in that they are straight up, then i wouldn't put so much importance on whether one guy is a more popular breeder or more well known than the other, i would just look at the sire and dam and what kinda dogs they are out of and what kinda hounds are in their pedigrees.

[briarshakersdaddy]

[1] would be how they ran and what faults they have. [2] Would Be if it was an honest Breeder [3] Would be pedigree. Pedigrees does not make a rabbit dog just a way to check out what the line has produced in the past. Honest breeder will have[ At lest his Stud dog DNA certified ]so you can check out the linage if you have any questions. But the main thing when picking a pup is performance of its sir and dam. Do they run the style you perfer Is there faults ones you can live with. Hard enough to get a good pup no matter what the pedigree say's if the parent's are not rabbit dogs or if the breeder stiff's you with a pup that is not bred the way the pedigree shows. Been done before and will be done again. Check out every thing you can before you buy a pup ask as many questions as you can not only about the blood line but about the breeder also.

[Pike Ridge Beagles]

Definitely breeder but that does not mean I ignore the pedigree either. Too many paper breeders out there for my tastes. Need to consider both dogs and have seen them run on several occasions or more before making a cross. Need to know both dogs strengths and weaknesses and not make a breeding if there are any significant faults. Many just breed and run paper. Many others breed good hounds and do their homework. Those are the breeders I look at when buying a pup.
True, nothing is 100% even when bred by the most responsible breeders but I feel better when buying from reputable and honest breeders who do a lot of field work along with studying pedigrees. JMHO

[JUDE]

This is a hard one !!! I have made descisions not to buy just
because I didn't trust the "breeder" but on the other hand if
the pedigree of a dog doesn't suit me I wouldn't be interested
in the dog either as I'd never be 100% satisfied NOT even if
the dog became Wld CH / GRCH / IFC with that being said
bigger isn't always better and I certianly wouldn't trust some
of the "bigger" names in the business as far as I could throw
them . I believe they sometimes regret letting go of some of
the lines that grew to SUPER STARTUM and
are making people pay for it buy American . Please
don't ask me to identify anyone as I'm not interested in going
there and there are many "big names" when it comes to a
nobody like me .


.

[Briarhoppers]

Thanks for the replies so far. Here is what I am thinking regarding this topic. Anytime we purchase a new 8 week old pup we are taking a gamble if the pup will "turn out" or not. Even if a pup is out of two IFC's it is more likely than not that some pups in the litter won't turn out....and it is very possible that when even breeding two superstars the whole litter could turn out to be just average.

Most of us would consider both the Breeder and the Pedigree when purchasing a pup, but I am thinking if I had to pick one, I'd have to put more stock in the Breeder than in the Pedigree alone. If the Breeder has a track record for success, intergrity and breeding dogs that you know fit your preferances, and he says this litter is going to be a "good one" I'd put more stock in the man than just looking at a very good pedigree from Joe Blow.

Another thought to go along w/ it. Just taking a couple well know "big name" hounds as an example - (not be critical at all). Say a pup ad. says, "This pup is out of a Turbo male and Ninja granddaughter." Well as good as Turbo and Ninja were as a hounds and reproducers, both the sire and dam of this pup could be complete junk and faulty....and the pup could have very little chance of amounting to much.

Unless you have spent a lot of hours in the field evaluating the sire and dam for your self, I'd definately put more stock in the respected Breeder's thoughts on a cross than looking at a pedigree alone.

-Pete

[beaglerun]

I am new to beagling and there is a lot that I don't know. What I have learned over the last few years has come from good men and the good dogs that they have. With that being said, I voted for the breeder. There are a lot of little known breeders with little known dogs who are very good at what they do. I believe if you find a breeder that shares the same philosophy as you; then you are likely to find that his/hers dogs will do the same.

Lets face it, most of us know what we know because a person started teaching us first, and a dog later finished the course. Some breeders just know how to breed, while others are not so confident. Some breeders know how to match dogs up in reality and on paper. As an inexperienced bealger, I need to have confidence in the breeder first.

BeagleRun

[foxxy]

i put breeder because i have seen when papers get switched to make a soup hound sell due to pedigree
papers do not run and if you have a set that does i would like to see them and the dog cant read them

[JCM]

I definitely put more value on the breeder. This topic made me think about Dennis and David Kennedy from NW PA. I have seen a number of their dogs run over the last 12-14 years. Every one I have seen, has a lot of desire, hunts hard, and competes with anything they run against. You can talk to them for just a little bit, and have no doubt that they know rabbit hounds. I really can't tell you the pedigree of their dogs, but if you bought a pup from them, I'll bet it would make a good rabbit hound.

I don't think you could be so sure, if you just bought a pup from someone based on the pedigree. It seems this would be especially true if the pup had two or more lines in it.

[KesslerBeagles]

At this time, 47 votes and 27 of them for pedigrees? WOW! I believe this shows the priorities and mentality of what’s going thru the minds of the majority of the people {at leased those that participated in this particular poll}, there are a lot of “puppy mills” and “dog traders” on this forum, all about the "red ink" and "quick cash" to most. Sad! This kind of "proof" of how people feel is exactly why 85% of gunhunters do not honor or respect "registered dogs".

[S.R.Patch]

Mr. Kessler, Your lack of reasoning, logic and understanding only serve to mislead you...

[SilverZuk]

I select dogs, with consideration of the breeding program (if any), and then look at the pedigree.

Many people are more concerned where the dog came from instead of the dog itself.
I believe I could advertise 3 legged one eyed pups that looked like poodle with a pedigree with all the big beagle names in it and people would go crazy over them and brag on how good they were because the pedigree.
It makes me wonder if people know what a good dog is. I know what I want and could care less what dogs are in the pedigree unless I have seen those dogs run, or pups with similar breeding run.

[KesslerBeagles]

Mr. Kessler, Your lack of reasoning, logic and understanding only serve to mislead you...

S.R. Patch,
My reasoning and logic behind my statement is this, most legitimate breeders match up dogs by complimenting their strengths and weaknesses, trying to produce pups that are better than both the Sire and the Dam in which they are out of in return bettering the beagle breed. Trying to eliminate certain traits, characteristics and faults, while at the same time attempting to enhance and preserve the positive attributes and strengths that each dog may have. Take any line of dogs of choice, Branko Beagles for example, his kennel may have many fine hounds but just because all of his hounds carry the Branko name does not mean he would breed any of his Branko males to any of his Branko females. There is strategy, planning and a method involved in the match-ups. The chemistry of some match-ups may enhance and make great hounds or it may bring forth faults that are not desired. This is why if a man in “Indiana” buys a dog from Branko’s Beagles and a man from “Florida” buys a dog from Branko’s kennels and they both have great dogs so they get together and breed these two Branko dogs, this does not mean you are getting a “Branko” pup. You may by name, but not by that particular breeder's standards. And if two people breed two Branko dogs together under these circumstances and you don’t get exactly the same caliber or quality of dogs as if you got them strait from Branko’s kennel, don’t complain, this is why. Though they are both good dogs, Branko himself may have not have made this particular cross because the chemistry would have been all wrong. This is why it is better to go to the “Well” to fill your bucket, rather than to go to a third party for a cup of water. Of course I am using “Branko” as an example but I think it applies to every line and kennel. A breeder can only take the necessary things into consideration and plan and strategize if they know the strengths and weaknesses of not only the Sire and Dam but also the Grand Sires, Great Grand Sires and etc… only he, “the breeder” has tattooed in his mind the reason behind certain breedings. A person that collects a bunch of dogs that have a lot of red ink in their pedigrees and then breeds them all together does not have a clue what faults, strengths, weaknesses etc… that they are throwing together. Just like a person that makes breedings for “pretty” match-ups on paper because certain names have been promoted more than others and happen to sell better, trying to promote a name or an “influential” hound or hounds that may have been in their dog’s pedigree many years back in the past instead of relying on the actual dogs in their kennel at the present time. Not all, but many are out to make a buck. They are “selling milk from another man’s cow” and that is not a good thing. This is why I believe, though pedigrees have their place, it is the breeder that the spot light needs to be upon the most, outside of the dogs themselves. I don’t feel I have been misled and I don’t feel my logic and reasoning is too far off, but everybody has an opinion and I guess people will have to agree to disagree.

[wvduece]

question for all you guru's i buy a branko pup from joe also buy another brank pup from danny i raise these pups then decide to breed the 2 dogs someone ask me what kind of dogs are ya raising are the dogs branko's dogs their shure not northway or patch jb

[Shady Grove Beagles]

I think breeder AND pedigree have to go hand in hand.The pedigree or papers are only as good as the man /breeder that is attesting to the validity of them.
Kessler Beagles. I applaud your post! It is refreshing to read something intelligent and well thought out.