What still constitutes a bloodline

[Tim H]

OK, your "simple answers" were more opinion than anything. How would it be simple for everyone to guess your opinion.

That is exactly why I posted that you should just state your point and not ask complicated unanwerable questions. How do you KNOW what would happen in the situation you gave. Let me give you the real "simple answer" you have no way of KNOWING anything based on the hypothetical story you gave.

Could you tell me exactly how many common dogs there were in the 2 lines? Linebreeding requires knowledge on more than just one dog. Next time you want to make a point just come out and make it in a sensible and clear post.

[Pine Mt Beagles]

MAN I LIKE THIS POST
FIRST THING I SURE WOULD LIKE TO HAVE A HOUND WITH 35% DINGUS MACRAE IN IT ABOUT 3-OR 4 YRS OLD,, THAT IS A LITTLE CLOSER THAN A GRAND PARENT.AND I THINK IT WOULD HAVE A SIGNIFICANT IMPACT ON ANY BREEDING.BEV---I DON'T THINK I HAVE SEEN OZZIE' RUN, I RAN WITH THE HILL BOY'S ,AT SEVERAL HUNTS BUT I DON'T REMEMBER HIM,, BUT KNOWING KENNITH AND THE STYLE HOUND HE LIKES,I COULD ABOUT GUESS HOW HE RUNS...AS FOR THE QUESTION POSED I COULD NOT ANSWER ANY OF IT,UNLESS I KNEW A LITTLE MORE ABOUT THE BITCH LINE 64 HOUNDS IN A 5-GEN PED.TAKES SOME STUDING.BUT WITH DINGUS STILL HOLDING AT 35% MUST HAVE SOME REALLY CLOSE BREEDING. BUT IF YOU BREED THE HOUND YOU HAVE AND THE HOUND HE HAS,EACH HAVING 35% DINGUS STILL IN THERE"" THE DINGUS HOUND' WOULD STILL HAVE A GREAT DEAL OF INFLUENCE,EVEN THOUGH YOU BOTH WENT IN COMPLETLEY DIFFERENT DIRECTIONS .I RAN THIS THROUGH MY PED. PROGRAM .AND I CANNOT SEE HOW IT STAYS AT 35%.SO I WOULD GO WITH TIM. IT IS A QUESTION THAT CANNOT BE ANSWERED..BUT IT SURE DOES MAKE YOU THINK .
KEEP'EM RUNNING
PINE MT BEAGLES

[NorWester1]

Okay, I guess we're splitting hair here, but when someone enhances a line whenever possible, it tells me that "exactly like" doesn't play into the equation. I don't even know where "exactly" ever came into this entire thread, but I digress.

No, you're not upsetting me. I didn't mean to put you on the defensive about the lineage of your hounds. For all I know, you got burned really bad on a dog deal where someone sold you a pedigree, and you've vowed never to put faith in ingredients ever again, and don't keep pedigreed dogs. That's kinda the way you come off to me. Probably not a shred of truth in it, I'm just sayin'.

Let's flip the script a bit, now that we've hashed Ozzie and other tightly-bred dogs to death.

I have some Northern Pride bred dogs out of MN, one from Riverbottom also out of MN, as well as a few hounds with some of the more popular large pack bloodlines in them and a few down from Gay Demon Buzz.

This seems really vague -- like maybe a little of this and a little of that. I don't know Riverbottom's bloodline. I do know of Gay Demon Buzz and most of the Northern LP hounds. Would you be able to tell me which of the dogs you listed are responsible for the traits your dogs have, and would you be able to predict with a decent amount of confidence what kind of offspring your dogs will throw? Would you say there would be a fair amount of consistency?

No, a bad dog deal didn't ruin me for pedigreed dogs In fact all my dogs have pedigrees to some degree, some may be a little more extensive than others, but I do keep pedigrees and in fact I love looking at them, studying them and then making up my own "paper tigers" with hypothetical breedings. I have absolutely no axe to grind over pedigreed dogs. However, and again, in my opinion they are over-rated and tend to be placed ahead in the list of must haves when building a bloodline of consistent traits and characteristics.

The RiverBottom dog I have is just a pup, a half brother half sister cross off Daniel's Shy and RiverBottom's foundation bitches. The Northern Pride dogs I have or had are basically linebred Northern Pride Kilroy and Northern Pride Suzy. The LPH bred dogs I have or had are a mix of Shaker, Timberchuck, Ranger Dan, Northern Sly, etc. Then theres the few I have with a little of the Gay Demon Buzz blood but most of the background on those ones are unknown other than Buzz.

Now to answer your question, with some of the dogs listed I could probably tell you what traits they are responsible for in my dogs. Much more so with the ones I've seen run than with the ones I haven't. Yeah, there is some consistency. Some of it good and some of it bad

[Laneline]

Just out of curiosity would you or anyone else happen to know if the hardcore brace style dogs share any common ancestors to any of the other popular styles of hare/rabbit hounds?

I understand what you are saying and the point that you’re making. I think there is a frustration with people “mis-representing” that they have “clones” of a few great dogs that they may have in their pedigrees, simply be because those dogs appear in a particular pedigree a few times. I agree with that. At the same time, just as “they” may go to the extreme with claims one way, does not mean that we must balance that out with ignoring what influences their actually are with the benefits of line breeding. Allow me to ask you to look at it in another scenario. What if we breed a well established great all around line bred male {proven producer}from any line, and for those six generations all your outcrosses were “German Shepard”. That 32% that you are referring to was all the “hunting beagle” that was in that particular final cross. Since we are using a lot of hypotheticals, if the world changed and the only way you were going to eat was finding and gun hunting “rabbits”. Would you go with the pure “German Shepard” pups? Or would you rather take your chances going with those pups that you knew had 32% of that great proven beagle line? Now before you dismiss this, imagine instead of the “German Shepard” it being another beagle with that same 32%, but the beagle was all “show blood” that was not bred for hunting. Now at least you have all beagle, but would you go with the pure “show blood” pups? Or would you rather take your chances going with those pups that you knew had 32% of that great proven beagle line? Now, replace that “show blood” with other hunting beagles. Hunting beagles that either shared or did not share similarities {characteristics & traits} with the original line that represents that 32%. I personally, and I believe breeders like Kenneth Hill and other fine breeders believe that when you do make out crosses your only going to use dogs that are very similar to the line that you already have that will compliment and enhance your line, or your defeating your own purpose. This is what wise, good and responsible breeding is all about. To answer the above question? Yes I know of a line, Yellow Creek. This line had a major affect on both Brace style hounds and the other popular styles of hare/rabbit hounds? Yellow Creek had many different breeders going in many different directions. The Boogie, Pearson Creek and Limbo line of dogs were the heart and soul of the Brace movement and all mostly derived from Yellow Creek. The Gray’s Linesman, Pleasant Run Banker and Pageline Parson were used to establish many of the popular hare/rabbit hounds, and also derived from Yellow Creek. The differences are in the independent out crosses that were made to dogs that either shared the same traits and characteristics as the originals and those that had nothing at all in common with them. But the question at hand is “how important is that 32%”. Do you clone dogs this way? No - Does that 32% make a big impact on your line? Absolutely it does. Take that 32% out of the line and than observe it. Using dogs that carry the genes that are proven producers in high %’s of the characteristics and traits that we want to add and obtain in our lines is the only way to accomplish our end results/goals. So to me, %’s are very important. Or, you can play the lottery and hope that your prayers are answered. I guess what I am saying, I would rather own and have a mixture of 32% Dingus with out crosses of other dogs {that share his characteristics and traits}, than own a dog that is 100% of any other line out there. But that’s my personal preference of the Dingus MacRae influence. But "personal preference" goes in many directions, so to each his own.

[mybeagles]

Several of you seem to think that if dogs dont decend from a famous line or a super star that probly resulted from an outcross than its just a bunch of hodge podge not worth crap.

The best dogs I have owned were non trial, non registered, non pedigreed dogs. Nobody has ever heard of these dogs because they were not part of a registry, never trialed etc.... That doesnt mean that those of us that were breeding and producing these dogs through various outcrosses were not producing good hounds. There is HUGE assumption that a person cant have a consistantly productive pack of hounds if they continually outcross. You may have to watch the hounds very closely to look for the traits you want. All the crosses will not work, but they dont always work with any breeding method.

If Nor Easter has dogs bred from all over the world, and he never inbreeds or linebreeds he can still have a great pack of dogs if he puts the time in, selectively culls and picks excellent outcrosses. Some of you will never believe that, but its true. I will never make a cross that I dont believe will produce a pup better than the parents. Call me a dreamer, but thats admitting defeat before you begin.

We all have ideas, we absorb a little bit from others, but in the end I assume everyone is going to do what they think will work or has worked in the past. Not sure why the breeding topic gets so passionate, I dont really care what anyone else breeds. If I like it I might purchase a pup, if I dont like it I usually wait to see what the results were. Watching the results has greatly shaped my beliefs and dictates what I will try in the future.

[Laneline]

Several of you seem to think that if dogs dont decend from a famous line or a super star that probly resulted from an outcross than its just a bunch of hodge podge not worth crap.

As for me, I don’t think that at all. I believe a man can do it if he does what you said: “You may have to watch the hounds very closely to look for the traits you want” - “if he puts the time in, selectively culls and picks excellent outcrosses” I just think once you get what you want, it is less likely to "mess it up" and easier to keep and maintain and most of all to keep “consistency” with what you have, by line breeding. It’s sort of the safe route, once you have it, “if it’s not broke, don’t fix it”, just reduplicate it. I mean at one time, somewhere at sometime it was the "first" cross. Then the process that you described above was put into action which than by many breeders, led into line breeding to simply preserve and keep what they had and to have consistency in reproducing it over and over again.

[Bev]

mybeagles, I get what your saying, but the thread is about bloodlines. There's a huge difference between a good "pack" of dogs and a bloodline. You can build a good pack in an afternoon. AKC has 2-couple pack trials all the time where beaglers pick out 2 from one kennel and 2 from another kennel, matching them up to speed and style, and then trialing them up against other similarly made packs. They are good packs for the day. They would probably be a good pack for a rabbit hunt. Bloodlines, on the other hand...it takes generations of blood, sweat and tears to create a good bloodline.

I don't think anyone here believes outcrossed dogs aren't worth a hoot. What we're saying is that while they may perform exactly the way you want, they are most often unpredictable when it comes to how and what they will REPPRODUCE. There are just too many variables that can pop up in a hound whose ancestors were always outcrossed. And it's not that the folks on this thread must have some big name dog upon which to build a kennel. You say some of the best dogs nobody knows. Then how would others ever know to go to those dogs if they don't know they exist? That's where the word "proven" gets heavy. Dogs put under the field trials and the gun have had many, many eyes upon them. They have been critiqued and admired, or critiqued and disparaged. In any event, they are rated by many people who don't have stock in the dog. One more way to cut down the gambling factor -- put the odds in one's favor.

I think it goes without saying that anyone who's been in the sport a while doesn't salivate at the word FC. They know that not all FCs are created equal. The homework is done on them as well. It's just easier to do when more than one township's worth of beaglers have seen them run and can testify.

[mybeagles]

Laneline,

Do you agree with many of the line/inbreeders that claim you seldom get pups better than the parents? Or that you seldom get superstars?

That suggest to me that the minute you start inbreeding your dogs are going down a slow hill. I would much rather have 1 or 2 superstars than a kennel full pretty good dogs. If you have 2 superstars you dont need a kennel full. You can focus all your attention on getting them all the running they need. I can feed them raw meat that is better for them than processed dog food, and if I feel like going to a trial, I can be confident in bringing home the Blue ribbon.

The down side is, you have to spend some $$$$$ going through pups to find 1-2 superstars. Sometimes you go through some real dry periods where you dont have much. To me its worth it, always hoping this next generation of pups has one in there. I can see where its not for everybody.

BEV,

This thread has gone in several different directions, please grant me some liberty here. Thats YOUR definition of a bloodline. My definition is the pack or style of hounds I keep in my kennel with my name on it. Since I dont inbred or linebreed my "bloodline" will consist of a mixture of several specific lines. Yes, I do understant the strict definition of a bloodline, I just choose to broaden my definition.

[Pine Mt Beagles]

BEV
MADE A REALLY GOOD POINT PACK OR BLOODLINE,I HAVE WATCHED SOME REALLY GOOD HOUNDS RUN THAT WERE OUT CROSSED" BUT"THEIR CHANCES OF REPRODUCING ARE SLIM.A BLOOD LINE WILL CONSISTENTLY REPRODUCE IN KIND AND IF PROPER CARE IS GIVEN WILL IMPROVE OVER TIME,MY PERSONAL PREFERANCE IS LINE BREEDING' BUT THIS WHOLE IS ABOUT PERSONAL PREFERANCE.GOOD LUCK--AND
KEEP'EM RUNNING
PINE MT BEAGLES

[RiverBottom]

Wow, hard to get my brain around all that was written on this thread since my last visit!

One observation I would like to make. I have made mother/son and father/daughter crosses, half brother/half sister crosses, crossed dogs back to their grandparents, and many other different combinations. Every one of these litters produced pups with lots of variation. No two pups were alike, or even close. Each pup in the litter had the same pedigree, but they all carried different traits. Some shared a few traits in common, but sometimes, pups from a total outcross do also.

Inbreeding and linebreeding are good tools, they narrow down your choices a little, but the person that picks who goes and who stays has a lot more to do with how the next generation turns out than what the pedigree says. The same person, choosing the same traits over several generations will get more and more consistent results over time. Linebreeding and inbreeding can speed that up IF used correctly.

Now here's a hard question for you (and NO, I don't know the answer, but I do have an opinion )
I have killed lots of snowshoe hares here in MN over the years from the same general area. They ALL look the same. They all eat the same foods and like the same type of cover. They all react the same when chased by hounds. The only difference I see is between bucks and does, young ones and older ones that have been around the block a few times. Aside from that, THEY ARE IDENTICAL. Are they inbred, linebred or outcrossed? How did mother nature get such consistent results in her breeding program?

My guess is there is a lot of inbreeding going on in local areas. But then, if I drive 100 miles north to hunt, the hare are still THE SAME. No way those northern hare can be related to mine in the first 500 or 1000 generations. In fact all these hare are from a seperate subspecies that inhabit a large area of the northern US and Canada. All geneticaly the same, but slightly different from those in Maine and those in Alaska.

Not only are they alike as peas in a pod, they are perfectly adapted to survive in the environment they live in. The deeper the snow gets, the better they survive and thrive. No human breeder could possibly breed up a strain of snowshoe hares that are more consistent and better adapted to survive in the north woods.

What's the deal?

[mybeagles]

Couple thoughts to consider.......

The average life expectancy for a rabbit is less than a year. I wonder why.

When a male is in breeding mode he will travel several miles. I wonder why.

Guys have a heck of a time getting snowshoes to reproduce in an enclosure. I wonder why.

Rabbits are towards the bottom of the food chain. I wonder why.

Rabbits are extremely proned to disease and dye out in cycles. I wonder why.

The more advanced the species of animal the less inbreeding there is. I wonder why.

Do rabbits seem to be getting more plentiful and more resiliant where you live. I wonder why.

[Bev]

Lots of inbreeding going on in mother nature. Natural selection is the culler. The goal? A strain where only the strong survive in its environment?

[Tim H]

Do you agree with many of the line/inbreeders that claim you seldom get pups better than the parents? Or that you seldom get superstars?

That suggest to me that the minute you start inbreeding your dogs are going down a slow hill.

I know you didn't ask me but I'll give my answer to this. Do I agree with your statement? NO, NO, NO!!!!!!!!

If the pups I get out of my breeding are not better than the parents then I will have to reevaluate what I'm doing. That, to me would mean I would have to spay/neuter the entire litter and then sell them to hunters.

By the way, I know not everyone does this, but if I haven't bred the parents together before I keep the entire litter until they are started, so I can see for myself what I have. How often do you think I would do that if the pups weren't improving my stock.

Like I said, I don't believe in "superstars" they only exist in the eyes of those looking for them.

Some of you are misrepresenting what linebreeders do. Try to be a bit more intellectually honest and we might learn from each other.

[Pine Mt Beagles]

GOOD POINTS -TIM''' IF THE PUPS ARE NOT IMPROVING SEEM LIKE WE MIGHT BE GOING BACKWARD,DOG FOOD COSTS TO MUCH FOR THAT
PINE MT BEAGLES

[Tim H]

Mybeagles, I've lifted some posts you made on the other thread that you started about linebreeding/outcross because I think they illustrate my point about a difference in philosophy's.

I want to own a superstar and its my dream to own 2 at the same time. The ulitmate satisfaction will come if Im able to breed them myself and raise them from a pup.

Ive raised around 200 dogs and have never owned a superstar. I have had 5 that I considered top notche but never a superstar.

It is your stated goal that you are breeding for superstars. You have raised 200 dogs in an attempt to do that and have been unsuccessful. Your stated goal is different from those who linebreed. Line breeders are looking for consistently better dogs in their litters and if they get a "superstar" then that is simply the result of their consistently bettering what they have but it is not an end all.

A "superstar" performs at a "superstar" level for 3-5 years, maybe more if your lucky and take good care of it.

A quality bloodline can provide hunting dogs for my children and grandchildren as long as we continue to be diligent and take care of it.

That is where the philosophy's differ. I'm not saying one goal is good and the other is bad, just different. However, if you can see the differences in the philosophy's and goals and then look at what is considered successful it may help you see which methods are working better at achieving the stated goals.

I hope you find a way to get your "superstar" but you might want to consider on the path to get there, you may need to linebreed or use someone elses linbreeding to get there. As someone who linebreeds, I certainly use outcrosses to achieve my goal.