would you breed to a faulty dog....

[Alabama John]

My feelings exactly Steve.

On breeding, I agree with you again, but will add that breeding best to best does not only give you those two choices.

There is another choice and the one I prefer is breeding a female that is the best you have that meets all your wants and so did her mother and father and even her grandparents based on your own eye observation and hunting with them. Breed to a best sire that you know its background and were satisfied with those in it as well as hers and then you have what we call truly Best to Best based on performance and genes.

That's why I prefer to breed locally as you have seen the dogs in the ancestry hunt and run years back and are not just looking at their reputation, sometimes hype, or big known names on papers. The papered dog advertised might be just what you are looking for, but how would you really know if you have never seen its ancestry perform much less the dog you are wanting to breed to. Papers and a picture doesn't tell much at all to me, and I don't see how it could to anyone else.

It would sure help if papers had a full page about each dog on them written by different folks that had seen the dog handle, hunt, run, size, mouth, etc. and would give a true and accurate asessment of what the dog was and its weaknesses and strengths and let that report be permanent on the AKC or other registry papers. Redtick has any Idea I really like. Make a video of it (we are in 2004 now) under the gun rabbit hunting and show it handling, hunting, running, shot over, etc. That would sure make papers now, but especially in years to come more meaningful and helpful rather that only that it made Champion which tells me nothing I really want to know to breed to him/her.

Having those videos 10-20- 30 years from now sure would make studying a pedigree much more meaningful not counting helping you make a much more accurate judgement in breeding Best to Best which after all is what we all are trying to do isn't it? With or without papers!.

[bluegrass]

Brian, I think if I had a hound that had certain faults I could live with, I would breed her to a male that didn't exhibit those faults in the hopes of cleaning that out of the line some. But if the faults were severe or very undesirable like shyness or even excessive coldtrailing or backtracking, I absolutely would not breed that dog. I think there are certain faults that are genetic and some that are environmental...Some shyness is a fault of the owners, but for the shyness that is inherited, that is a definite NO-NO in my book. Trash running is the same way, some is the fault of owners not properly breaking their hounds, but I have seen some hounds that will not break no matter what you do to them. I think the conformation of the hound is an obvious one to see...Not breeding deformities is a no brainer. Tony

[Bob Wiest]

Hello Brian:
I do believe that there are lines that are less trashy than other lines, and I will take your word that your line doesn't produce much trashrunning. That being said I believe for the most part dogs can be trash broke. I want a dog that hunts hard, runs fast and tight, and has the nose to run cottontail at the northern limit of their range. If Pete is reading this I do mean better than the other 90% nose, and I do have it. Just as I don't believe most guys don't rate nose as important as me, I'll really be surprised if a disinclination to trashing is a primary concern to most beaglers. I do know that I was running hare in August a couple of years back when my dogs went out of one swamp and over a hill into the next. When I got onto the next hill I heard that they harked into a large pack of about forty hounds running a deer. I found the owners of these dogs before I could cut off the pack and get mine out. I'm not naming names but these guys are big names in trailing in MI and they didn't give a hoot there dogs were running deer, they were getting in shape. I can also tell you that one or two of those dogs will be in the top ten in Better Beagling top sires. I have some of that blood in my kennel and I was able to brake them, but not broke enough to keep them from harking into those forty hounds. So I'll close by saying that looking at the whole hound the fact he ran a deer wouldn't stop me from breeding the dog, if he couldn't be broke there would be no way I'd breed him. I also congratulate you on trying to breed trash free beagles you are bettering the breed, it's just not on the top of my list.
Best wishes Bob

[blackdirt beagles]

hi bob- good post and i understand what your saying. we all have out "top traits" we breed for. believe me, i value nose as good as anyone. i guess trash runners just bother me. i dont know why anyone would put up with that. of course ive have had trash runs beofre with young dogs. but the ones that cant be stopped REAL quickly from doing that get culled. generally its just not a problem.

[KanesIrish]

Blackdirt,
you say "would you breed to a dog with a fault?". And you list trashrunning and shyness.

The fact of the matter is I would say that 1/2 of the people on this board who breed litters to big name stud hounds have never seen the dog run in the first place. I know for a fact that a lot of you talk about a dog that is probably the laziest dog I have ever seen that has won a field trial.

Yes, I would breed to a dog that ran trash, KNOWING that his offspring have not run trash. Breed to a shy dog? I honestly haven't seen that many to know or not.

Would I breed to a lazy dog just he has the title of IFC? No way! Not at all! But you guys keep looking at the results and going by hearsay, and not actually by how you see it yourself.

[blackdirt beagles]

KanesIrish - actually you are very wrong in my case about following or breeding to a FC. i could care less about trials. rarely in my opinion do they bring back the best dog that day. my stud dog that just passed away wasnt a FC. could of been probably as he needed only a 1st, but i put him in 2 trials in 7 years i owned him...lol thats what trials mean to me. i have a new stud i will start using this year, and i guarantee he will never see a trial. same with the 2 male pups i have out of my present litter. if they turn out, i would bet money right now that between them, they will not see 4 trials in both their lives. i keep good gun dogs. if someone wants to chase trophies, thats great for them, but id rather pleasure run/hunt.

[KanesIrish]

Blackdirt,
where in that post did I say it was towards you?

[blackdirt beagles]

i was just answering your post as if it was directed at me. your post says "you guys" and i didnt want to put in that catergory. just making it clear.

[James Carman]

I remember reading one well versed beagler say that he would rather breed to the worst of a good line than the best of a bad line. I kind of feel the same way. Of course, I would rather breed to the best of that good line. Why would you go the other direction if it was not necessary.

[SMITTY1233]

I voted No and then read your post. If the traits were trash and shyness I would breed and take my chances. If the dog was a backtracker, mouthy, etc. I would never breed to it. But if we are talking shyness or trash running these are both traits I think can be worked with especially trash running with a good ole ecollar

[blackdirt beagles]

smitty, i guess this post just shows that we all think different on severity of faults. i never had a backtracker, but i have had a couple mouthy young dogs that matured just fine, so that to me would not be a major flaw. trash and shyness are big faults that will get a dog culled quickly here. everyone has their own opinions though. its interesting to see people explain their views.

[SMITTY1233]

Too everyone his own is a great way to look at it. I would like to think I can break almost 90% of trash runners. The shyness is harder to work with but with a lot of handling and gaining the dogs trust some will come around. Now backtracking and mouthiness are things that just rub me the wrong way and I attribute to brain power more than anything. You probably think the same about trash and shyness.

[Joe West]

Dominateing the trials really doesn't tell me much because you don.t say what trials. The hound could be a world beater or useless based on that descripton. But for the sake of argument lets say he's a good one. There is no question that one should NOT breed to this hound because in your original post you've already stated that the hound produces shyness in his progeny. There is no chance to take, we already know the hound produces shyness when bred and should therfore not be used for breeding purposes.

If the question were the hound is shy and should we take the chance of breeding to him when it is not known if he throws that fault then that is a different question. We could take a chance that he won't pass the fault on to his progeny but once we know he throws that fault he's useless for breeding.

[blackdirt beagles]

i agree very much joe.

[windy hollow]

I have a female that will hunt all day and night if you let her and she has good tongue,she is not going to mouth off line or skirt or anyother undesirable things BUT she is very shy, afraid of stang dogs, people any thing scares her.
now you would get rid of her???

In a heartbeat.

Some things I can live with. No dog is faultless. Depends on the fault. Trash-running, I'd consider if it weren't perpetual. Shyness, no way. That's one of the things that I doubt can ever be totally overcome. Shyness is just about the only thing that I can think of where I'd say unequivocally no.

did you read that whole post ?
this beagle was 8 weeks old when I bought her, the man I got her from is in his 80s and has an invillid wife to care for which means he has no time to be handling those pups.
she may have been wild, she was scared when I got her but she is extremely intellegent there are people she loves and shows no fear and others she just wont warm up to,now if I were to get pups from her and handle them from day one they wont be affraid of humans and maybe have all her smarts and abilitys and then I have a champion that I
developed, and didnt just buy a champion.