Speed and running on snow

[windy hollow]

The reason I solo on loose deep snow is the "cave in" factor, the lead dog pretty well covers up the scent as the snow caves in as he runs thru it leaving very little or no scent for the second hound or trailing hounds. Now I am talking about hounds that run to catch, they need scent to do that, if your dogs are competive and not true me too hounds they will fight for the lead so they can smell it. I am referring to only the extremely cold dry conditions. If they are fighting for the lead then you will have more breakdowns, most of my dogs slot up and run well in a pack if they can smell the rabbit (hare) but they will cause some problems as far as a smooth run with minamum break downs if it is real tuogh. I find this a good time to solo and a reason to leave some behind as it benifits the dog and the hunter. As I said earlier, I don't like to leave any dogs home when I go and they sure don't like to be left behind either. (Just ask my wife LOL), they usually voice their displeasure about being left home. Hare P.S. Hope this clears up my point of view. Everyone is welcome to theirs and where you hunt and the conditions should dictate how you like to do it with your dogs.

well I was not testing you I honestly never hunted hare but what your saying makes sense to me and it also explains why my big dog gets in trouble at field trials in snow he will skirt to get ahead of the pack and usually right in front of the judge's. oops!

[TomMN]

Steve, Sandy was bred here in MN from local dogs. She did have some Branko in her but the Branko dogs I have seen since could not run like that. I have a female out of her that I would like to breed to a stud with the same style of running if I can find one.
"We got a lot of chances at shooting these hare but they were going so fast there was a lot more powder burned than hare put in the bag."
I know what you mean, I shot at one three times on Saturday, never did get it. Must have been going too fast, at least that is the story I'm going to use!
Joe I think you missed what I was trying to say. "Conditions can't be bad if a hound, any hound, can run his game fast and accurately." I have seen many times on days the hounds (any hound) could hardly keep a track going when one of the dogs will get on a hot track and give that hare a good hard run for a while. If you don't shoot the rabbit sooner or later the dog will make a loss that will take too long to recover and it will be back to grinding out the track slowly. It takes a certain type of beagle to do this and they are not too common. Keep in mind, I am talking about hare hunting. Cottontails usualy head straight for a hole this time of year where I'm from, regardless of how fast they are run.
And no, I never saw Sandy or any other beagle catch a hare that had not been shot at although I have seen them get close enough to sight chase them several times and like Pete said, I have had times where the dogs were too close to the hare to shoot.

[Joe West]

TomMN: Ah I see. Your saying on days when scent is disapateing quickly. Stick close to the hare and you got a run, fall behind and the scent is gone. So the faster hounds can stay close and have a run while the slower hounds can't. I'm not sure scenting works exactly that way. For the scent to be disapateing that quickly the conditions have to be poor to begin with.

I'm wondering about the cotton tails going to hole. We have both here as we are on the line where the two mix in their ranges. If you also have both it must be the same where you are. Aside from deep powder I can't think of why the rabbit would go to hole too quickly except for hound speed. If it's deep powder I'll take some we have ice now.

[Hare Hunter]

Windy Hollow, I never took your question as a test but as a question and I answered it that way. I don't spend much time worring if others agree or disagree with the way I see things, I also don't worry if others don't like the dogs I feed or the way I train, am I satisfied with my dogs? Well yes and no, by that I mean like most, I feed them so I must like them, but am always looking for dogs to upgrade what I have, I am not kennel blind but to hunt in the conditions I do for much of the winter you pretty much have to see a hound run over the course of a full winter to get a honest opinon of the hounds ability. Usually hounds that have NO chanch of making the grade as dogs that may " make" good snow dogs eliminate themselves fairly quickly. Hope this helps. Hare

[TomMN]

Joe, that is excatly what I am trying to say, thank you. If you can put together two or three beagles that have that kind of speed AND line control you will see a lot of hare, even on the bad days when scenting is terrible.
Deep powder is normal here this time of year. Very seldom does it get above freezing. Snow that falls in late November is still on the ground end of March.

[TomMN]

OK, doesn't look like I'm getting much disagreement on that point. Now think about this. Isn't this the type of dog that AKC large pack, Midwest SPO, ARHA Little Pack and maybe UKC are trying to promote? I'm not saying every dog that champions out in one of these formats will be able to run down a hare at ten below but won't a good, fast hound that has the ability to run at top speed without overunning do well in these formats? Pete said "there are fast dogs and there are good fast dogs.. a good fast dog is fast because of his nose... " If a hound has enough nose to hang onto the line at high speed won't they also have enough nose to do it on snow?
Maybe Alabama John's pack would do very well on hare in mid-winter, deep snow and below zero temps. What do you think John, want to try it?lol

[S.R.Patch]

Joe,
There are days the rabbits don't want to run(?) and every one we jump makes a B-line to the hole. A lot of times after lunch, they will change their mood and give a good race(?).

TomMN,
" If a hound has enough nose to hang onto the line at high speed won't they also have enough nose to do it on snow?

Scenting conditions are never at a constant, only the hounds know at what rate the line can be run, if at all. We can only guess what is there by what the hounds that have proven to be good ones show us...Patch

[Alabama John]

Tom,

I totally agree with you. The closer a dog stays to the rabbit, the hotter the track and the easier it is to run him. I know a dog close to a rabbit can smell and run him on water but I know nothing about snow, but it makes sense to me.

These ol' dogs of ours have never seen snow, well one did a few years back, but that was looking out its dog house door. We don't drive until it melts off. Neither have they hunted in weather colder than about 32 degrees above and that was in early morning when we cast them and it warmed on up during the day! We have a few days that get down in the teens, but we stay at home til it warms up.

They would probably do as someone said and jump back in the dog box if we casted them in ya'll area in winter.

I know I would not be out there either.

You fellows are way too tough for me.

[Steve C.]

All depends on what you're used to John. Myself, I melt when it gets much over 70.

[S.R.Patch]

John,

I have always felt that, a tender nose, is a tender nose, is a tender nose. A hound having the brains to adjust should do well anywhere...Patch

[TomMN]

John, we're not tough we just don't know any better.
My wife brought home a female from Missouri last summer. She was NKC registered only and had placed in a couple ARHA LP hunts. This little female is fast and smart (in fact she is the most intelligent dog I have ever seen of any breed but that is a story for another post). She has had a lot of rabbits shot in front of her this winter and is fast becoming one of my favorites. I'm sure she never smelled a hare before she got here.

[windy hollow]

Windy Hollow, I never took your question as a test but as a question and I answered it that way. I don't spend much time worring if others agree or disagree with the way I see things, I also don't worry if others don't like the dogs I feed or the way I train, am I satisfied with my dogs? Well yes and no, by that I mean like most, I feed them so I must like them, but am always looking for dogs to upgrade what I have, I am not kennel blind but to hunt in the conditions I do for much of the winter you pretty much have to see a hound run over the course of a full winter to get a honest opinon of the hounds ability. Usually hounds that have NO chanch of making the grade as dogs that may " make" good snow dogs eliminate themselves fairly quickly. Hope this helps. Hare

thats exactly what I always say. and when I train, I train obedience only, and leave them develope their own style, and if it works we go with it, if it dont they still make good pets
the reason I started out the way I did, it seems theres a lot of pressure here between breeders, and handlers, and I honestly never hunted hare,
and I didnt want you thinkin I was a smart a$$.
since I've been beagling Im learning the more people I meet the more I like my BEAGLES. thanks again for your reply.

[Joe West]

Tom MN: There are parts of this that trouble me. Maybe just because certain things haven't been ackowledged here yet. But there seems to be too much emphases on foot speed and nose. I know at first glance that sounds odd but just think about it for a second. No hound can run flat out under all conditions, the scent just isn't there to do so. It has been my own experiance that the vary best hounds have a vary wide range of gears that they will use according to the existing conditions. If a hound tries to go fast when conditions dictate that they cannot then they will not be able to maintane control of the line of scent. They will get wild. When that happens they will make less forward progress trying to go fast then they would if they geared down and kept control of the line of scent; and they will loose more game. Fast and accurate is great when conditions allow it but it's not always possible. If we put oo much emphises on fast alone we will end up with tree knockers. When scenting is terrible fast AND accurate isn't possible. If the hounds are both fast and accurate then the scenting isn't terrible.

Nose: The nose alone doesn't account for a hounds foot speed. He can have a great nose and still not be able to run fast and accurate. On the other hand the hound can have a good but not great nose but still be able to run his game faster and more accurately then a packmate with a better nose. There is much more to it then just the strength of the nose.

Patch: Yes there are days like that but not too many. Heck when the deep snow has been around for a while they will even run under it.

[Guest]

Great Nose, Good Foot, Brains(Gears). Take one away and on nasty running stuff your going to have trouble.

[snowshoehareguide]

if we are talking about deep powder snow it goes way beyond nose.. dog has to want to catch. has to pour his guts into it or hare will just run away from him leaving him cold trailing.. if scenting is tough u still need the nose.. nose is just a word... dog needs a certain amont of scent to even go at all.. i can stand any dog that at least tries to run..i see so many dogs that dont detect any scent from these big stinky hare.im not so sure a hare leaves any more scent than cottontail in cold temp on snow. they are wearing snowshoes and rarely sink into snow very far.. on wet snow or wet ground they leave a ton of scent but none too much when its cold or dry. this is what drives me nuts. . i just saw a hare and they cant run it. its too cold ,too dry, too something.. this is not rare this is average here in winter.. i got a yard full of dogs and only two are close to haveing a decent nose.. get two feet of powder snow and nose may not be limiting factor. its that run to catch attitude.. anyways lot of different situations - i like your dog u speak of with gears for running on crust in cold weather. they got to start somewhere.. any run is better than no run.. i like the real fast dog john and tomn are talking about in deep snow.. he may have the little extra guts to get thru that snow. he still need nose to run at all in the cold. gears a little less important. anybody got an extra good dog ? i could use one. i think somebody must be hoarding them.. just heard on tv -40 tonite in colder pockets. that new always puts me in a good mood.. teens -john thats not too cold - thats just right.. a few nites of -30 will really kill the running ..not good running till it snows again or thaws. whos got a bunch of dogs will run good on old snow when it was -30 for a few nites in a row.. im talking big old stinky hare should be no problem. ran this week and temps in high 20s above had some great running. deep snow no problem at all. was -23 this am - lot colder tonite. dog power index is dropping rapidly . pete