LP VS PP

maplehill · Post by **maplehill** » Fri Jul 10, 2009 7:26 pm

In my experience with PP, if you have a fast dog, especially at our club since alot of dogs are ran in both LP and PP, you wont get scored right if your dog gets out in front of the pack. The judge will simply just not score it. If the dog is being to rough for PP rules, then minus it and pick it up. If the dog is doing it right and is just faster, then score the friggin dog. Leaving the dog down and not scoring it is just keeping the other dogs from scoring too.

jdwiley · Post by **jdwiley** » Fri Jul 10, 2009 10:27 pm

These days, I dont feel like theres much difference in speed between formats as far as LP and PP go,as long as they arent gettin too rough. I have about had 2 heat strokes judging and seen plenty of other judges puke at PP hunts, and I'm in pretty good shape. Maybe theres less breakdowns and thats about it. I know they can fly in PP,but like I said, I have not had the chance to make a LP hunt. Would like to though.

Alabama John · Post by **Alabama John** » Fri Jul 10, 2009 11:45 pm

Steve Good explanation, thanks.

You would hear how to solve the worlds problems as well as hounds of all kinds and breeds pluses and minuses. Gets heated, all don't agree every time but still friends. Lots of laughs.

I sure like the going with the fast dog even if its alone.
I missed something somehow. I understand your PP dog gets points for jumping the rabbit and points for each check recovery. What I missed is Strike points in your last post. If you got jump points, what is Strioke points?

I sure like the no time limit on checks. Just like we call checks while running our dogs or hunting. WE all like to hear our dog doing the recovering.That one change would help LP a lot in my opinion.

Judges in all physical events get my respect and in most they do not have to follow the participants, just look at time pieces. I don't know of any other that requires as much stamina as Beagle trials with the exception of Brace. Even bird dogs judges get to ride in a 4 wheeler or on a horse. Coon dog judges sit on tailgates and listen to dogs running and the dogs even wait on the judges to amble to a tree.

Triple_S · Post by **Triple_S** » Sat Jul 11, 2009 12:30 am

Thanks john, i almost put that in there. but i just answerd the one's you ask.
here you go.

Strike

1. Definition: A strike is 3 or more barks from 1 hound after the hounds have been released in the field. This hound is said to be "on the clock".

2. If no hound is on the clock, strike points must be awarded if a hound jumps the rabbit. Example: A) Hound A jumps a rabbit from his setup. Even though Hound A did not bark on the track before he/she jumped the rabbit, he/she is still awarded the strike points. In this situation the hound shall receive 20 strike and 20 jump points even though he/she did not open until after the rabbit was jumped. B) Let's say that the dog that is hunting hard in the brush pushes a rabbit out the other side. The rest of the pack sees the rabbit and the race is on. How do we score this? In this example, the hound hunting hard and pushing the rabbit out of the brush should be awarded 20 strike and 20 jump points even though the hounds that were out in the open barked first. C) Hound A jumps a rabbit from his setup. Even though Hound A did not bark on the track before he/she jumped the rabbit, he/she is still awarded the strike points. In this situation, the hound shall receive 20 strike and 20 jump points even though he/she did not open until after the rabbit was jumped. Once again the rule says, "If no hound is on the clock, strike points must be awarded if a hound jumps a rabbit. The hound that is out there hunting hard makes good things happen and should be rewarded. The key to this rule is the judge must see this happen.

3. In the event that 1 hound strikes but another hounds jumps the rabbit, the hound that struck shall receive 20 points and the hound that jumped the rabbit shall receive 20 points.

4. A hound that opens on the track and is struck by the judge does not have to jump the rabbit to receive his/her 20 strike points, provided another hound jumps, or produces the rabbit within the allotted time of 4 minutes. Example: Hound A barks 3 or more times on a track. Hound B harks in and barks and, in the judgment of the judge, produces a rabbit; Hound A shall receive 20 strike points.

5. Strike points can be given just once on each rabbit. A "dead track" would have to be announced and the strike jump reopened, before an additional strike could be awarded.

i will add ,i did not see to many jump points give at the trials. due to the fact they have to see it.
most of what i seen was the first dog to open on a track gets the strike points as long as they produce a rabbit.

take care,
i have to get up in 3 hours to run dogs

Steve

Alabama John · Post by **Alabama John** » Sat Jul 11, 2009 7:58 am

Steve
Good explanation. I got it now. THANKS!

We willl go to one if there is a PP trial pretty close. Lots of beagles around here and of all types. Some hall of fame dogs close to me that are AKC and trial only AKC in the next catagory above Brace. Might be SPO, I'm not sure. I just never have run with any of them as they say my dogs are too fast footed. Several that have blood semilar to ours run them for fox and Coyotes in BIG pens.Ours by and large don't open until they jump. Well, one has a Bluetick female that does open a few times before she jumps, but, she is too shy of strangers to take to a trial. Not shy hunting if we all agree to not reach for her and let him catch her. Too inbred. That's another story.

Triple_S · Post by **Triple_S** » Sat Jul 11, 2009 9:03 am

You are most welcome John,
we had one fair race today . then it started storming so we loaded up and went to eat.
i wish they were more trials close to us. we have 2 that are with in 1 hour the other 4 that i would go to are 2 1/2 to
3 1/2 hours away. i am pleased with how my dogs are doing. and at this point in their life i think the best thing i can do for them this coming season is gun'em so from mid Nov. to Feb i plan to hunt more than trial. i dont want to trial my Kate pup untill fall of 2010 or maybe spring of 2011 which would make her almost 2 years old. i would like to have my hounds seasoned before i put them in the trials.
i have 2 other pups coming that i will have to work with not counting other obligations.
i did not do this with Doc an Bonnie they were still green bonnie more so than Doc.
this is just my reasoning behind my thoughts .
if i take a 1 year old green pup and throw it down with older seasoned dogs that are 2 to 4 yrs old that are close to makeing champ. it may be to much presser. maybe its not, but maybe it is . it would depend on the dog.
but if i dont, i know it wont hurt them. i can run them with seasoned gun dogs myself with friends or my uncel and give them the best foundation that i know how to do. by useing the style of dog i like to run help train them.
i think i have some good blood in my kennel with more coming soon. time will tell how it turns out .
take care.
Steve
PS. 90% of the last posts come right out of the ARHA rule book. they also have big pack and gundog brace which i would like to check out the gundog brace some time.

HM · Post by HM » Sun Jul 12, 2009 12:17 am

JCM ( Jim) and all others have posted very good replies. I belive both formats really promote a good beagle. ARHA has proven dogs can compete in all formats and win. LP dogs regularly compete in AKC Midwest and LP and win/ place. UKC typically sees results as well with many cross champions.

I have been participating in ARHA events since '90. As Jim said, the quality of dogs have improved overall thru the years. Being involved in hunts and running them, ( Ashland, Ky., and Ohio PP State Rep) and others, I agree, the hunt entries just are not there for PP. LP by far is more popular in Ky. as with most states.
Judging both formats for a long time, I have always tried to bring back the dog that is best of that cast. This is most enjoyable. Both LP and PP promote a very high quality hound. Thru the years we have bred to better hounds for hopes of bettering the breed, it seems to have worked.

LP vs PP, or other AKC, UKC events show a good hound does prevail. Since the topic is ARHA/NKC , I think one should try both and read the rules on the website. LP hounds that can control a line with close work in the check area and does not over compete, (skirting or cutting) will do well in PP. PP dogs should not be based on speed, if it is done according to the rules , then it should stay on the ground to win. Today's PP major events show a hound with speed and the ability to drive a rabbit with consistency. My hounds of the last few years have fallen more to the PP rules...although competing in LP is an option. I know of hounds that run in both, along with AKC MIdwest and UKC and place. I think one should try either format and find one that suits them. With runnin PP vs LP, the dog can be scored in PP on all that happens with the checks under a 15 second time period. I enjoy judging this work of a hound that completes a run. I have always thought how great it would be to judge short checks and less mistakes on all hounds, regardless of format.

T

LIVE WIRE KENNELS · Post by **LIVE WIRE KENNELS** » Sun Jul 12, 2009 4:42 pm

HANDS DOWN,if mid-west went by the rules set forth by akc there is absolutely no question about which format that would suit me completely!!!but they don't,the dogs are NEVER required to hunt.it's called THE MID-WEST GUN DOG ASSOCIATION .the key word is GUN DOG.that's false advertisement,a gun dog should start by hunting and jumping a rabbit.if i have to hunt and jump the rabbit i'll simply jump shoot the rabbit and save all the money spent on dog food and all the head aches.that's the reason for this lp/pp question,alot of people run different formats and i was looking to see if there would be one to fit me and my type of dog.

beagler282 · Post by **beagler282** » Tue Jul 14, 2009 4:19 pm

One thing that was missed was that in PP you can also get a check for turning the line and not just a breakdown.If hound A over runs the line and hound B that is behind him turns on the line and keeps forward progress going then he is scored check points.

Triple_S · Post by **Triple_S** » Thu Jul 16, 2009 4:04 am

thats good to know, i did miss that.

johns03272008 · Post by **johns03272008** » Mon Jul 20, 2009 3:35 pm

Re: LP VS PP

Post by LIVE WIRE KENNELS on Sun Jul 12, 2009 4:42 pm
HANDS DOWN,if mid-west went by the rules set forth by akc there is absolutely no question about which format that would suit me completely!!!but they don't,the dogs are NEVER required to hunt.it's called THE MID-WEST GUN DOG ASSOCIATION .the key word is GUN DOG.that's false advertisement,a gun dog should start by hunting and jumping a rabbit.if i have to hunt and jump the rabbit i'll simply jump shoot the rabbit and save all the money spent on dog food and all the head aches.that's the reason for this lp/pp question,alot of people run different formats and i was looking to see if there would be one to fit me and my type of dog.

NO WAY I HAVE TO DISAGREE WITH YOU THERE LIVEWIREKENNELS in jmho i have been to a few AKC MIDWEST TRIALS have handled, had a few dogs in them and i never hunt for the rabbit now when the judges are a little tired and we need a rabbit to run after they have been pounding that area we will help the dogs out by pointing them in the right direction or trying to get them somewhere else but i have never walked in the weeds to try to jump a rabbit for the dogs to run now if YOU WERE having a rough time finding rabbits or the rabbits aint out would you rather have 7-9 dogs looking or 7-9 dogs and 6-15 people helping out trying to get a rabbit up and going cause i dont drive and waste gas for a no rabbit day of no running

i have driven to LP hunts and i like little pack but i dont like the no bunny lets just pick who i thought was hunting and handleing the best are you kidding thats a joke 1 hour wether you run or not NOW WAY I DONT PAY MONEY TO JUST GO THERE AND CUT MY DOGS LOOSE IF YOU THATS WHAT YOU LIKE MORE POWER TO YOU I CAN STAY HOME FOR THAT AND SAVE MONEY AND GAS AND ENTRY FEE i like to go and watch running and maybe just maybe my dog places if not at least i got to talk with people and see some rabbits running for their lives!!! If i go to a trial i expect running and in AKC they allow you to HUNT/HANDLE your dogs TO GET A RABBIT UP IF NEEDED BUT THE DOGS MUST BE HUNTING!!! IN AKC MIDWEST GUN-DOG ASSOCIATION DOGS ARE REQUIRED TO HUNT I HAVE SEEN DOGS ORDERED UP FOR NOT HUNTING NEVER HAVE I SEEN A DOG PICKED UP IN LITTLE PACK FOR LACK OF HUNT AND I HAVE BEEN TO ALOT OF LITTLE PACK HUNTS now im not bashing little pack cause i like little pack but i just have to disagree with you about AKC MIDWEST JMHO

LIVE WIRE KENNELS · Post by **LIVE WIRE KENNELS** » Mon Jul 20, 2009 8:19 pm

sure some judges do want the dogs to hunt,and even some will pick up a dog for not hunting,BUT FOR THE MOST OF THE TIME THAT'S NOT SO.i've also went to a few,and like i said VERY FEW of the judges require the dogs to hunt,heck i've seen dogs lay down and not get picked up.some of the other guys that's been to a few have too.I am just curious about all the other formats out there that i have never participated in.and peoples opinions really don't matter to me about what i know, think,or have seen many times with my own two eyes.i just wanna know about lp and pp,and would like for as much info as i can get concerning those fomats. THANKS

beagler282 · Post by **beagler282** » Tue Jul 21, 2009 2:45 pm

In PP the 10 minute rule was changed this past year in regards to hunting.It's now a 5 minute rule.If the hound is put on the clock for not hunting after 5 minutes he/she comes up.