best line control bloodline?? im fed up.

[bluecollar beagler]

i run the dogs atleast 3 times a week and sunday afternoons and basically all day on mondays.
when the dogs opened early they opened for probably 3-4 minutes before the rabbit was up. they were moving along the track but you could tell that the rabbit was close but they definitely didnt have it up yet. my old male dog hadnt opened yet and i knew they were getting too mouthy. at this point i was hitting them on the tone or i bump to a 1 or 2 on the shocker to get them to shut up. within a minute or two later they jumped the rabbit up and it tore out past my buddy and ran behind him into a hole. when they ran it into the hole the two pups turned around and started barking on the track backwards like they were on it again. we hadnt moved and it was in a pretty open area of sumacs so i got ticked off enough to light them up on 3. this pretty much sent the female into a frenzy and she was done.the male couldnt of cared less. i only bumped her one time and that was all it took. she had done great all morning up until then and we had hunted from 730 -11 when it happened. from 11 on she was a idiot.

[NorWester1]

Sounds like those young dogs have more nose power than what you need for the conditions and area you hunt.

Did I read it right that you corrected them for opening on a track too early for your liking as well when they took the track backwards?
No wonder your bitch was freaked out ....... must be awful confusing for her don't ya think?

Personally I think a dog needs to figure out/learn which way a track is going on it's own......... correction with an e-collar isn't gonna teach them anything and most certainly will not communicate what you want them to do.

In the situation you wrote of where the rabbit bolted to a hole immediately, aside from sticking their heads in the hole, how would those pups know which way that single track was going?

[ohlinger]

Norwester is sorta right...there are a couple different degrees of back tracking young dogs hittin in on the middle of a track will sometimes have problems figuring which way to take it right away...or find scent right by the hole its easy to understand why a started pup would back track it right ? ..It just kind of depends on the conditions of what is going on. As far as Nosepower, I don't think it's nosepower i think it's brains. The brain is what controls the mouth and the nose right ? (words of ol wise elliot peters lol) The dogs may have to learn how to use it all correctly some never do, some are born with and some learn it. Some dogs just need to be ran enough to settle down too. The dogs need to serve there learning time before you can make any clear judgements on them. They are pups man. strong nosed hounds can stay up there cuz while a dog is working a cold cottontail track a good jump dog in the briars will jump it long before the cold nosed dog works it out to a jump. Anyhow Nose and mouth have litte to do with line control. Sounds to me like you might be dealing with dumb pups that need more experience just my pair of pennies. A little bump with 2 on a back tracking episode will not hurt the dog or freak it out a couple corrections the dog figures it out pretty quick as long as it gets it turned around and going the right way, that is how i will correct a young attempting to backtrack.

[Hood Swamp]

I dont think your expecting too much. At 16 months old they should be able to run a rabbit without help, period. Characteristics in a dog whether it be behavior or running style, usually stay's relatively the same through out their life. If they are wild on the line, in my opinion, they will not settle down so much as they will learn how to run with the style they have (rough).

[ohlinger]

How is this older dog you're running them with ? If you run pups with too strong of a dog that influences what they will do, as well as running them with too slow of a dog that they have too much confidence in as they get strong enough to blow it away, constantly going back in there checks to the older dog that has'nt reached the check yet....I don't know i was'nt there to tell you what was going on just somethings i've seen before. However, influences have alot to do with what dogs will do 16 months a dog is still extremely encourageable, it's still a young hound just starting to do it's own thing. Most of the time*. Best advice split them up until they start doing it right. I don't consider a dog mature till 18-24 months of age.

[rabbitearl]

Keep going, luck will come your way one day.Anybody on here thats had dog for along time will tell you a little luck your next pups will be better.

[thornie]

I don't like to repeat, but one good old dog and one pup. This is when the young dog learns, no pressure from old dog and can get the front end. When it starts jumping and running tracks in front of the old dog, then it's time to see if it can solo one by itself. If this happen's on a consistant basis, that is when I start the gun training. A blank pistol used same as you are rabbit hunting, fired when and if the rabbit is seen or passes close to you, but not when the pup is on top of you. Don't worry if the pup shuts up, wait and see if it brings the track on through. But my main thing I try to tell everyone, you have to have a good pup trainer. I know, what your going to say, my pup is pounding rabbits in a starting pen, but there is a big difference in a pen and the wide open spaces. Different scents, thick cover and how to get past these new scents and and through all these different cover. Don't forget they are just like babie's they have to learn to walk and talk.

[straight crk farmer]

buddy them pups have got to learn how on there own an once they get that down then you start with there fine tune work, you said they was runnin backward well duh! every pup is goin to do that from one time to another just like alot of pups will bugger bark when they are hunted on there first snow or frost hunts. you just got to take youre time with them. and dont be shockin them to much i have seen guys ruin good dogs by shockin them to much, just take youre time they will catch on

[sanfordssj]

Put them up for sale and buy you a started, finished dog. Sounds like you don't have the patients to work through the growing pains of training pups. Sell them before you shock the hunt out of them and ruin them, but you got good advice to solo and run individually, but it also sounds like you came very close to making junk dogs with the help of the e-collar. Don't touch that button unless its for running trash! If you want to go a different direction and want line control look at Otis and (Laneline) Dingus Yellow Creek dogs/pups. Don't take this personally because you are not the only one to have these problems. I have been guilty of running two pups together and shocking when i didn't need to also. Ask yourself what you really want this season and if you have the time to work these pups equally. If not, sell one and take the time with the other to make it the hound you wanted. You can only go up hill from here!

Good luck, you just have to be patient from here.
Steve

[sbadger]

I have 2 Larson Jackson Male and female litter mates ,striker blood and a old branko male if I take all 3 dogs out its not good its getting better but I found from the board members that I need to take them out 1 at a time till they run there own rabbit and then after 2 times by there self bring in the older dog then 2 more times by there self and it worked ,when they have no help they have to do it on there own ,I sold 2 good Ranger Dan beagles best line control dog Extreme hunt Rabbit hunting Machines they have good nose, brains and ran the line ,keep the ones Ihave know got they are my Daughters dogs ,but when I get back on my feet I will have 2 more Ranger Dans ,Stines Time Oops A Chase ,Green Bay Shooter,Big Tuna,Geno,I like the pp pack stile dog the one male I soldto a man in ohio has talk to him a week or two ago he said he cant keep any weight on him said the dog has no quit hes in the brush looking all the timewhen he was 8 mths old he was runing 3 hours strait in a runing pen and you had to stop him Kettle Creek Mackey Boy and Bartons Rosemary Wine if you come across some pups from these to better grab one the pup I sold are Started and running well getting good replys

[cspot]

What would bother me the most is the opening 5 minutes before the rabbit is jumped.

What are they opening on? Their mothers track? A rabbit? Ghost?

Either of these would get them a bus ticket.

When the female ran to your friend and jumped on his leg and cried out "take me home away from this man" it should of told you something!!

If they work the track up and jump it what makes the difference. 5 minutes is not very long to wait and if they are producing I think that this is a good thing. I don't want one that will stand in the same spot and blow holes, but if they can move it and get it worked up I love it. If you experience a low rabbit population you would appreciate this kind of dog. When they open on the old track, was your old dog working the track too. They could be getting excited from following behind him and getting a little bit of scent. He is not opening but they can tell that he is excited.

[Big Dog]

Get rid of these two and get you something else, my experience is that dogs that start off rough just get rougher as they get older, they sometimes will learn how to run rough(guess) better, but they will always be high maintenance requiring a bunch of solo time and excuses for why they are constantly screwing up the race. The cold trailing is just what it is, it will only get worse as it gets colder and you start running on frost. If you can put up with cold trailing then that is ok, but if you can't then move on because 5-10 minutes of barking on feeder tracks will get on your nerves quick even if they do eventually jump the rabbit. The traits that you have called out on these dogs are some of the negative traits that you will see in many of the turbo bred dogs so anyone experienced with that line will tell you that extra mouth/cold trailing and over competitiveness will sometimes pop up in this line. There are many good traits with this line of dogs also like extreme hunt, foot speed and bottom. In the end you will have to make the decision, but don't make "hope" a course of action. Hoping that they will change their running style will only cause you frustration. Cut your losses and move on to something else. A sorry dog eats the same amount of food as a good one. Just my two cents. Also ease up with the shock collar, too much of it can ruin a dog.

[Ron Conroe]

well said big dog, theres to many good ones out there, sounds like they need to be culled or give them away with no papers and find what you like, hell give them to some of them guys on here that like them blood lines.

[bigdogpace]

IF U WANT GOOD LINE CONTROL CLEAN DOGS GET U SOME TUBRO DOGS IVE HAD THEM BEFORE ANYONE KNEW WHO TUBRO WAS. HAD PROBLEMS BUT AT 16 MON. ALL I EVER HAD COULD COOK ARABBIT . WHATS THE REST OF BREEDING N PUPS.? SOUNDS LIKE THEY GOT ALATE START. THE WAY THEREACTING I THINK BIGDOG HAS RIGHT IDEA. AT 16 MONTHS THEY SHOUD B CHECKING AND RUNNING THE LINE ALMOST LIKE AN OLD DOG IF RAN AS MUCH AS U RUN. JUST WHAT I THINK BUT U HAVE TO GIVE APUP TIME.AND 1 AT ATIME . BIGDOGPACE

[Richard]

Sounds like your female has been hit too much with the training collar.

I am like you, I like a hound that has good line control. I have some that are out of the Cruse's Jim Dandy line from MS. Also, have Gunsmoke Tadpole blood in them.