best line control bloodline?? im fed up.

[warddog]

I believe that BIG DOG is right on target with these pups as it sounds like what you see is what you got. At 16 months old and being ran as you described you have ran them they should be showing you their STYLE of hunting. If it is in their blood to swing then I don't care how much you solo them they will swing. The opening up a couple minutes early wouldn't bother me unless they were boo-hooing and blowing holes in the ground but if they were moving the track and got it up a very high percentage of the time I'd not cull them for that alone. I'd also cut back on the use of the e-collar until they have had plenty of fur in their mouth as they are relatively young(teenagers) but NOT puppies they still have plenty of learning to do so as to know how to put the scenting direction together. Although you didn't say much about these two dog's running speed and check work as far as swinging but it actually sounds to me like you have two young dogs that are just not suited (bred) to your running style of dog and with that said you should probably sell them and buy you some more conservative running style dogs as using the shock collar when mad or frustrated will surely ruin them completely.

[ricky murphy]

Sounds like those young dogs have more nose power than what you need for the conditions and area you hunt.

Did I read it right that you corrected them for opening on a track too early for your liking as well when they took the track backwards?
No wonder your bitch was freaked out ....... must be awful confusing for her don't ya think?

Personally I think a dog needs to figure out/learn which way a track is going on it's own......... correction with an e-collar isn't gonna teach them anything and most certainly will not communicate what you want them to do.

In the situation you wrote of where the rabbit bolted to a hole immediately, aside from sticking their heads in the hole, how would those pups know which way that single track was going?

I think theres more than just problems with the young dogs here!From what i have read so far i dont think this fellow knows how to use or train a dog with a e-collar.I do hope he learns soooooon for these 2 beagles sake.

[bluecollar beagler]

murphy, thanks for the snide remarks......glad to know your crap doesnt stink... ill remember that...

i dont run a puppy mill at my place like some of you so no i dont fool with the number of dogs some might... though i have started every dog ive owned in the past 15 years and had absolutely NO problems with using my e-collars.... have i used the e-collar at times when i shouldnt have... absolutely but who hasnt at one point or another... i make mistakes... am i overusing it... i dont think so... when i tone or hit the male pup he corects himself and it doesnt bother him...he goes right on hunting.... im not zapping these dogs on anything above a 2....and when i do that neither one will make a sound... when i zapped the two of them on 3 yesterday it was the first time in more then 6 months i have zapped either of them on a setting above a 2... (have any of you felt a 2.... ??? its hardly noticeable)... yesterday while running more then 4 hours i didnt hit these dogs more then 3-4 times on anything above a tone on my collars..... so give the collar crap a break... your just assuming im trying to burn the leads off my collars and im not....... you werent there..


wardog, id say he's right too...what i see if what im gong to have... i ran the male this morning for 3-4 hours and i really dont see him miraculously learning line control... its that bad... the female is not as bad as the male and can actually keep a good pace for her speed. she doesnt try to hunt faster then she can.. ive pretty much made up my mind to move the male dog and keep the female to run with my older dog and see how she turns out... if she doesnt improve ill give her away... and start over..


thanks for the replies... good and bad...

[ricky murphy]

murphy, thanks for the snide remarks......glad to know your crap doesnt stink... ill remember that...

i dont run a puppy mill at my place like some of you so no i dont fool with the number of dogs some might... though i have started every dog ive owned in the past 15 years and had absolutely NO problems with using my e-collars.... have i used the e-collar at times when i shouldnt have... absolutely but who hasnt at one point or another... i make mistakes... am i overusing it... i dont think so... when i tone or hit the male pup he corects himself and it doesnt bother him...he goes right on hunting.... im not zapping these dogs on anything above a 2....and when i do that neither one will make a sound... when i zapped the two of them on 3 yesterday it was the first time in more then 6 months i have zapped either of them on a setting above a 2... (have any of you felt a 2.... ??? its hardly noticeable)... yesterday while running more then 4 hours i didnt hit these dogs more then 3-4 times on anything above a tone on my collars..... so give the collar crap a break... your just assuming im trying to burn the leads off my collars and im not....... you werent there..


wardog, id say he's right too...what i see if what im gong to have... i ran the male this morning for 3-4 hours and i really dont see him miraculously learning line control... its that bad... the female is not as bad as the male and can actually keep a good pace for her speed. she doesnt try to hunt faster then she can.. ive pretty much made up my mind to move the male dog and keep the female to run with my older dog and see how she turns out... if she doesnt improve ill give her away... and start over..


thanks for the replies... good and bad...

By what you wrote U do Not know how to use a e-collar or even train a beagle.Find and experienced houndsman close to you and ask for his Guidance--you need it badly

[bluecollar beagler]

if your the collar god, what exactly did i write that told you i was an incompitent bas!ard with an ecollar...???? fill me in id like to know since you obviously have a ph.d in e-collar training here.....you tell me what would you of done??? i can take constructive critiscism but if your just running your jaws to be running them dont waste my time..

your telling me that bc my dogs run a backtrack for 50-60 yards i wasnt supposed to shock them...... ??? when my male dog hit a deer track yesterday i wasnt suppose to shock him and let him know it was bad.. i was supposed to let him run it till his heart was content....??? your kidding me right... so in other words im supposed to tie those collars around there necks and let them figure out what there doing wrong on there own....

[ricky murphy]

I can see by"your comments" WHY another "experienced houndsman" hasn't took the time to share training methods that work with U. ps- You dont listen so U dont learn

[mud]

I say use your collars the way you think they need to be used.I have a buddy that must have a dog that can take a collar because he will not tolerate stupid stuff from a pup or old dog.Also he must have a dog that you can shoot over the top their head and they must take it.He has got rid of many a dog that made an above average dog in the hands of others.Thats his way.He could care less whether others like it or not.He has top notch gun dogs.He hunts everyday since being laid off work.I spoke with him yesterday.He has already killed over 150 rabbits.My approach is much different than my friends but I will say his methods do work.I say get rid of the pups and start with something else....

[bluecollar beagler]

I can see by"your comments" WHY another "experienced houndsman" hasn't took the time to share training methods that work with U. ps- You dont listen so U dont learn

exactly what i thought.... ALL JAWS FLAPPING.......... i read you write... . thanks self proclaimed super trainer...
i do listen to suggestions when they are trying to help but from your last few posts you have done nothing but acuse me of not using a e-collar correctly but have given no advice on helping... prove your point or shut your mouth.... what a joke...


and an fyi, ive had more then 5 pm's since you posted last that said they train the exact same way i have mentioned i do... so i must not be the only dumbazz..... ill tell you what... you train your way and ill train mine.....




thanks mud... im not that aggressive...... but i like them to mind..

[JUDE]

I stayed away from this when I first read it but now I will give you my thought on
the situation .

E collar

When using the E collar you should know what the reaction and how much your
pups can handle ( how they will react ) before using it in field training . Some
hounds handle 3 and just turn away and wag thier tail coming to you or stopping
what they are doing wrong (these hounds will be more easily trained) . Some
hounds get hit with 1 and you'de think the world just come to an end ( the guy
using the shocking system needs to know how each hound will react ) especially
before he uses the more intense levels . I noticed that you gave a symbol
because the female brought a rabbit back to your friend be happy not
mad as most dogs wouldn't do that . With this said : not everyone has the patients
or ability to train pups . Rule #1 : Never let your emotions (anger ) over come you
when handling pups or dogs . I know it's hard to do sometimes but it's a wonderful
rule . Many potentially great hounds are destroyed by inexperienced owners with a
E collar . However they are the greatest form of training I have ever known IF the
hounds already have a desire to please thier owner and are well socialized .

Bad habits can be inherited or inadvertently taught by inexperienced handlers .

Now as for the way the male pup is running in the field there's more that people on
here would need to know .
1. Has these pups already had too much pressure put on them ?
2. Age of the pups ?
3. How long have they been started ?
4. Were they started alone or with another dog ?
5. If started alone , the best way imo . How did they run the line on thier own ?
Some hounds can't stand pressure at a young age . They will just blow up and
start to do stupid stuff . Pups should be nice and strong and have gad plenty of
track put in front of them before even thinking about putting them with an older
more competetive hound . As far as the extra mouth goes it could come from
thier parents ??? or from too much pressure , ( pressure will also cause a young
hound to run silent) .


Which bloodline

There are many bloodlines out there that might suit your needs but I would recommend
you go watch thier grandparents , parents or siblings from that particular bloodline
as it would be hard for anyone to know the exact speed , desire and traits you may
be looking for .
Some bloodlines are realllly finicky . Need ran up almost daily , can't handle pressure ,
can't handle correction and have no desire to please thier owner ... I personally stay
away from that and steer more toward a working mans hound . To each his own !!!

What to do with the pups

At this point you know the pups are not for you . I would recommend you let someone
have them who would have more patients in training or tolerating thier defects .

Fine print : I'm no expert by any means If someone wants to add something please
do . I just try to use what little bit of help from others and dabs of common sense
I pick up along the way .

Goodluck finding what you want !!!

[jim matuszewski]

rick murphys post on this matter holds no merit when the guy asks for info and facts even a little help he gives a one scentence post full of stupid icons. In my experiance witk the ecolars some dogs just don't handle it well some you could lite on fire once you get to know the dog use collar accordingly

[ricky murphy]

I can see by"your comments" WHY another "experienced houndsman" hasn't took the time to share training methods that work with U. ps- You dont listen so U dont learn

exactly what i thought.... ALL JAWS FLAPPING.......... i read you write... . thanks self proclaimed super trainer...
i do listen to suggestions when they are trying to help but from your last few posts you have done nothing but acuse me of not using a e-collar correctly but have given no advice on helping... prove your point or shut your mouth.... what a joke...


and an fyi, ive had more then 5 pm's since you posted last that said they train the exact same way i have mentioned i do... so i must not be the only dumbazz..... ill tell you what... you train your way and ill train mine..... lol




thanks mud... im not that aggressive...... but i like them to mind..

[ricky murphy]

I can see by"your comments" WHY another "experienced houndsman" hasn't took the time to share training methods that work with U. ps- You dont listen so U dont learn

exactly what i thought.... ALL JAWS FLAPPING.......... i read you write... . thanks self proclaimed super trainer...
i do listen to suggestions when they are trying to help but from your last few posts you have done nothing but acuse me of not using a e-collar correctly but have given no advice on helping... prove your point or shut your mouth.... what a joke...


and an fyi, ive had more then 5 pm's since you posted last that said they train the exact same way i have mentioned i do... so i must not be the only dumbazz..... ill tell you what... you train your way and ill train mine..... lol




thanks mud... im not that aggressive...... but i like them to mind..

[sbadger]

nothing personal but if you don t want to here from other people trying to help maybe you should not put any thing on here I try to here all there ways and try 1or 2 of them getting anger does not help you or your pup keep the peace

[ricky murphy]

There is a fellow who's got a website called K & A Beagles.Mr bluecollar beagler send the 2 hounds there for a month.Keith gets very good results with the beagles he works and Keith is Very affordable.

[Tim H]

From the original post it sounds more like a handling problem than a dog problem. The thing about training pups is not everyone can do it well. It doesn't say anything negative about them, just that it takes certain qualities to do it right. Not everyone could be a grade school teacher, doesn't mean they hate kids or are mean people.

There are several things required to train pups. I'll list them in order of importance.

Patience
Patience
Patience
and when that doesn't work just add a little more patience.

I am hard pressed to really get upset with a dog until it reaches 2 years old. I spend my time and energy trying to figure out what the dog is doing so I know how to best help the dog.

As was said in an earlier post. When your dog went to your buddy, it was asking him to take it away from YOU. That could be for any of several reasons but the 2 most likely are, that you have confused the dog about what it should be doing or you have been to harsh with the dog and it has developed a relationship of fear with you. You have to match the correction with the dog. I have 2 sons. One of them if I say I am disappointed in what he has done, he is crushed. The other one would look at me like "you'll get over it". I can't apply the same discipline to each and expect the same result.

If you look at the posts you will see that there is some good advice here. Some advice on how to correct what the dogs are doing. Like, run them solo or only with one older dog. Also you are getting some advice on how to correct yourself. Like, stop sending confusing messages to the dogs, lighten up on the e-collar, have more patience. You and your dog are a team, so it's shared responsibility when things go wrong or right. However, you're the leader and so you are more responsible for the outcome.

Some of the advice has been delivered in a harsh way and some of it in a more gentle manner. Take it all and learn. I can say, I don't think I would blame the bloodline in this case.