Not enough nose???

[Bunnyblaster]

There is a thread on another board that got me to thinking so I thought I'd ask here. Right now conditions are tough up by us. Yesterday we took 3 dogs to a very thick area. 2 of the females we took are good dogs and both have good noses and the pup I took is less than a year old and I'm not real sure about her nose power just yet and that's where I thought of the question. Before the snow flew I had her packing in with the other dogs and she was doing a share of the work too.......not just tagging along for the ride. Now in the crappy conditions she can hardly do anything at all. She did have a 3-4 week vacation because of deer season and that is also when we went from no snow to a winter landscape but shouldn't she at least be able to bark if she can smell it???? I can understand having a tougher time working out the line with the poor scenting conditions but pre-snow she's doing pretty good and running with the other dogs and post-snow she never even barks??? So does the inexperience of being a puppy play the bigger part or is it their nose......or lack there of???


And I guess another question while I'm at it.................

How do you guys that run on snow judge a pup or young dog's nose power for the upcoming snow during the warmer months? I've had dogs or pups that impressed me on sod but come winter time they weren't worth a hoot. Last season was the last straw for me and I made lots of nose a necessity in my kennel.......no nose and down the road they go. I currently have 2 dogs that are on the chopping block because of their apparent lack of nose. Now having the deer hunting vacation and being their first seasons on snow I'm not shipping them out just yet...........they deserve a fair shake but in another few weeks if they can't start to pick it up then they don't get to stay with me. I get tired of the excuse that "the conditions are tough" and they are but the most time I get to hunt is during those tough conditions so my dogs need to be able to run or I'm up a creek.

[BCBeagles]

Bunnyblaster,

My opinion is some lines have more nose and some dogs have more nose. I feel if a young hound is not showing me what I want to see by 14 months they are on the
chopping block as well. Whether it be nose, hunt, etc. I think dogs can adjust with some time on the ground in those conditions, but if in a few trips things don't improve
I would be concerned. You may try soloing her so she is not in behind the other two and getting all the scent. If that was not better she may not have enough for the conditions.
I think her patience to work would be shown soloing as well. In behind a couple other hounds may just not allow her enough scent being she is young.

[deerhost]

How old is she? Was it the first time on snow? You maybe asking for too much too soon from a pup. I would let her run solo on snow so she can have time to process the less scent that may be available in the tougher conditions, and learn on her own pace with out having the pressure of the older dogs dragging her along. Also I think personally it takes time for a young pup to develop there full olfactory sense of smell. I only say that because I've seen my pups nose come along way from when they were say 6 months to when they reached 14-18 months old. Give her some time I think and solo her in snow a bit. Let her work on her own pace. A pup I started this fall looked real shaky on snow the first time she was on it solo, but after 3 or 4 solo runs she started getting real good at it. She runs just as well on snow as on sod now. Good luck....DH

[bigjohn]

I've got a year old pup that was coming along real well before these subfreezing temps and deep powder snow hit us.At first she didn't do much but has steadily improved since then.I think ,just like starting them,you have to wait and see.Sever conditions need a little more time to adjust to.

[Bunnyblaster]

She is right around 9 months old and I've only had her on the snow probably a half dozen times or so...............and not solo yet. I just would have thought that yesterday with the terrain being really thick and the cruddy temps that combined to really slow down the older dogs she should have at least barked in there somewhere??? or am I expecting too much too soon? And the tough part is I've been trying to run her with just one other dog that isn't super fast cause finding and jumping one right now has been tough. My concern with taking her solo is that she either can't or won't be able to jump a rabbit and then decide to take a deer or something just to be able to run. Should I not worry about that and just take her??? She seems to hunt well and she handles fairly good for her age but that has a lot to do with the time I've spent with her I think. I should also mention that in the warmer months she was never real early to open on a track and I couldn't tell if she wasn't smelling it good enough yet or just waits a little to open like pups do sometimes. She has a beautiful and loud bawl/squall mouth that carries quite well.

[RiverBottom]

Bunnyblaster, 9 months old is way to young to expect anything in bad conditions. I know what your talking about. Been like that here since Christmas. I usualy hunt at least one good proven dog, one or two young dogs under three, and maybe one pup. Most days, the old dog is the only one doing anything useful. I'm really happy when one of the two year olds can run some on their own.

The very best snow dogs I ever saw didn't get good until they were about 4. They couldn't do much of anything on bad days when they were 9 months old. The good ones showed me just enough when they were young to give me hope. I would keep bringing the pup along, they learn lots of good things just being out in the woods that they can't learn in the kennel. Just don't expect much until the weather gets better.

Solo a 9 month old pup? Wish I could, but yesterday I could have put a pup down 10 seconds behind a hare and it wouldn't have known one was around

[Bunnyblaster]

OK I'll use today as an example. I went out for a little over an hour out behind my place where I run dogs quite often. I jump a rabbit and call both of the pups over to the tracks. Now this other pup is a couple of months older than the original pup I was talking about. I started them both at the same time and even then the older pup seemed to have a better sniffer than the younger one. I watch both dogs stick their noses into the tracks that I can see plain as day. The older pup gets excited and lets out some whimpers but never really opens up or does much with the track. The younger dog puts her nose in 3 or 4 of the undisturbed tracks just like the older pup did but never does a thing............no bark.......no whimper.........not even a happy tail or anything like that. Does that not tell me that the pup just cannot smell the track??? I can see smelling it and not being able to do much with it given little experience but if it can't smell the track now why would this same dog be able to smell the track in another year or so when she gets older??? It just seems to me that if the dog has a nose then it has a nose.........and I can agree learning to use it is a whole other ball of wax but I'm thinking she just doesn't have the nose I'm looking for.

[BCBeagles]

Maybe at 9 months the nose and brain have not fully connected yet. i would give her some time. Have a male like that. thought at 12 months he had very little
nose cause he was real tight mouthed. Now at near 4 he can is probably my best over all track dog under all conditions. Just an example I have seen. He gives much
more mouth now. Just not if he isn't smelling it good. he seems to smell it good most of the time though.

[Bunnyblaster]

Yeah but bc to me that is learning and I can understand that. Looking at that same dog did he used to get that happy tail and just wasn't real sure of himself so he didn't bark much??? I'm not trying to be argumentative, heck it's my dog, but I just don't get how down the road their nose will get better. I think the dog itself gets better at knowing how to use it's nose once it learns to trust what it's nose is telling it........that makes sense to me. I guess I just don't know.

[BCBeagles]

He would be in there the whole time just not opening enough where I thought he should have been. I was ready to sell him because, like you, thought he should have been
opening as I had seen him on good scent days. It was a drastic change in him between 13 months and 18 months. He turned it on and never looked back. He is the one of few
dogs I have had that has made improvements every year I have had him and I raised him from a pup. You can't tell if all or any hound will do this but if she shows you things
you like on good days I would hold on and not get rid of her too early. Been there and done that and that is great for the guy who gets him or her but doesn't improve your
pack any. Good luck with her.

[Bunnyblaster]

Thanks for your input BC, I do appreciate it.

Anyone else???

[BCBeagles]

No problem. Best of luck again.

[Ron Conroe]

the best snow dogs i have ever had could run a rabbit on snow at 6-7 months old, then they only got better. but i think the line of dogs you run have alot to do with it to.

[NorWester1]

Here's my take on it for what it's worth.

Bunnyblaster, the trouble starts because your dogs aren't bred to run in tough conditions, plain & simple.

Second there is a learning curve that any hound needs to bridge to be able to run when it's tough out, experienced adult hounds included. So that means your pup is basically out to lunch.
If he is predisposed (genetically) to being able to get the job done eventually, he still has to learn his trade.
That can only come by putting hours on him in the woods in tough going.

I myself had a puppy pack that ran great all fall. Best bunch I've raised.

Then winter showed up.

I've got one that I've kept running and hopefully he'll make the grade someday .
The rest are pretty much fair weather running junk

Now, they make make an ok hound for running in some snow, when conditions are favorable.... eventually. Problem is I don't seem to get favourable conditions in winter often and I don't have the patience to wait 4 years for a hound to learn to run some of the time!

As far as a judging criteria for nose power on sod that's a little tougher, because it's not as obvious.
When looking for dogs or watching dogs work I tend to take notice of dogs that will open/work a cold track in IDEAL conditions when other hounds do not. If you watch a rabbit skate on by you, time it. Wait a bit then start putting dogs on the line and see who can smell the track and move it out

[S.R.Patch]

I can't see where there's much hope then...