Not enough nose???

[rmaynard]

when did I ever say that I have not seen them? I been in this for along time and hunted in alot of places. To me most dogs that have a big nose will do that or they will be mouthy when tracking gets good. I'm no pro just tell you what I know and that ain't much.

[lee ga]

newt, i agree. i didnt explain my self very well. if i understand correctly, norwester1 said that alot of the southern houndsman seek northern bloodlines for their nose. its true, ive done it myself. my point is this; if a bloodline cant get it done in the north's tough conditions, its been my experience that they cant get it done in the south's tough conditions. ive seen both northern and southern bloodlines and very few of them perform any at all in the toughest conditions in ga. i dont see any difference between the northern/southern lines. some have it and some dont. lucky for me, the worse conditions i face are usually in late summer/ early fall before rabbit season starts.

[rabbitsmoker]

From my experience a big nose dog from north and northeast is really mouthy here. Where im at the conditions here are very seldom bad. What im meanin mouthy is aolt of crazy barking before the rabbits up and on checks its like they can smell it everywhere.And how i know this is when scenting is not at its best they do allright

[Laneline]

Laneline has posted on the Hunted Hare in the past and I believe he is a member there. The comments were not meant as a stab in the back.
I'm questioning the logic in his posts, not his integrity as a person!

No offense taken here. I don’t expect everyone to think and agree as I do. I don’t think others expect that from me concerning their opinions. On topics like these, challenging each other and questioning ourselves is thought provoking and is how we learn.

On another note, much has been said about what we all think causes a difference in nose power/brain power or how ever we want to label it. I would like to ask, in the last 10 years or so, what common denominators have been in the more “successful” - “big nosed” dogs that produce the same. Any certain method of breeding? {¾ Hare & ¼ Cottontail - or - ¾ Cottontail & ¼ Hare etc…} Or any particular lines that have been more successful than others that are actual “proven”?

For the last several years what we have tried to do is scatter our dogs out. Between my brother and I, we raise 4 to 6 litters a year. Some of them go to local gun hunters, but we try to get pups in the hands of people in Texas, Georgia, Vermont, Maine and a few others, but just so we can keep tabs on how pups from the same litters, using different crosses perform under different circumstances and conditions. To get the answers that I really want, I need to be breeding about 12 to 15 litters a year. The truth is, some of my results were real good and some of them were real bad, especially early on. I wish I could truthfully state some wild high success rate, but those claims make good advertisements, but are not very realistic. Now, years later I have simply culled harshly and stuck with the more successful crosses and line-bred to have a consistency, but by no means do I claim to have it down to a science, and I doubt anybody will. What I truthfully have come up with “to my standards” are many dogs that are “above average” good at everything but great at nothing. With occasionally producing a “Super Dog” and occasionally producing an absolute dud. It would be nice to produce whole litters of “super dogs” but right now I am just trying to produce a better dog next year than I had last year.

I was just curious in the “opinion” of others, in the last 10 years or so, what common denominators have been in the more “successful” - “big nosed” dogs or lines that some of you know or experienced personally that produce with consistency.

[lee ga]

The most common thing I see in hounds/bloodlines that are proven to be useful in bad conditions is there method of running a rabbit. As a general rule, most I have seen were levelheaded and worked in a sound manner. I have seen exceptions, but very few.

[mybeagles]

The best "big nosed" hounds I have watched were just a notch or two above medium speed. Breeding speed into big nose has not worked for me. In theory it sounds good, but never works out like I think it should.

On the flip side, dogs below a medium speed with a big nose seem to cause all sorts of trouble.......babble, backtrack, severe cold trail etc....

I agree with ga lee, level headed, calm acting hounds with lots of composure are traits linked with the best Ive seen. Hyper or high energy dogs abuse the ability and forget where the check and where the line is......they get confident they can pick it up 50 yards away.

Over competitiveness is the worst trait for running big nosed hounds......thats why everyone has to run solo and maybe brace to keep a race going in the tough conditions. Bird dogs must honor another hounds point......I cant get my beagles to do that........

Mybeagles

[ohlinger]

i did'nt read all 5 pages of this thread and forgive me if i'm repeating something someone else said,but I think brains and patience are often over looked , and associated with Nose Power issues instead...i've watched dogs work a cold that some dogs were barking, some were'nt even though they're tails were wagging, and there noses were down working the track, Now why did one dog bark and another not bark yet ? I have a hard time believing it's the nose power difference, we watched the dogs work the track to the jump then the dogs not barking yet opened and continued opening, and the race took off. I don't think "Nose Power" is the issue most of the time, I do believe that PATIENCE, and BRAINS are what you should also consider some dogs don't have the patience to work out tracks on tough days or certain conditions. It's just much easier to point the finger at the nose. The best dog i've ever seen run in bad conditions was seen this year, he did'nt have a superior nose, and his owner will tell you the same thing, This dog has soooo much patience, and desire to work the track that he will walk when the other dogs are shooting back forth, and up and down trying to push to hard for the conditions they are running. A young dog especialy a 9 month old puppy is not going to have awhole lot of patience at all or brains for that matter alil education can take a dog a loooooong way.

[Bunnyblaster]

You did miss one small part and that was the pup in question on the tough days doesn't even seem to get the "happy tail" or the extra enthusiasm that you described when they can smell the track but either are smart enough to not bark too early or too inexperienced to know they could sound off on a colder track. And the tracks in question were in the process of being run when I watched all of this go down. Now that part being said the only real disagreement I have with you is I think your description of brains is actually what I would call experience. A dog either has brains or it doesn't and then learns to better use it's tools through experience running tracks. This little girl works her tail off but just doesn't seem to have the nose IMO. I may very well be wrong and unless she gets terribly stupid or something that would cause me to send her down the road I believe I have decided to hang on to her until next winter and see what happens. It really is hard to explain I guess what I see out of her.............showing you guys would be much better but I don't have a video camera.

Now yesterday.............little warmer temps and the rabbits were running a little bit. She could smell and do some barking of her own and she even picked up a check or two while she was running with the same dogs as before. Supposed to be like that for most of this week and then temps will drop again probably back to where they were when she seemed to be struggling before. Like I said time will tell and I hope I am wrong because I like her as a hound..........we'll see.

[ohlinger]

just curious what do u consider brains bunnyblaster?

[Bunnyblaster]

I think of it as more along the lines of how they react and learn.......both in the field and in the kennel. I'm not really trying to be smart but it's almost hard for me to explain...........you just see it in them as they grow and get better. A dog without brains tends to not learn from experience..........and then obviously a dog with brains learns through experience. Around here a small and easy example would be a dog that learns to also see the rabbit tracks in the snow to assist in running a track. I've seen some dogs that just don't get it............ever.

I kind of look at it like this with dogs, people, whatever:

Everyone/everything is born with certain abilities that they have. Each is different so all of their abilities are better or worse than the next to a certain degree..........better nose, faster, better eyesight, whatever. Now with these abilities they now have to learn to use them so they go out and learn how to do things through experience. They can only learn by doing it but how they process the information they got while doing whatever it is they're doing is what's important to me. A dog that just had the experience of getting the snot shocked out of it for running a deer and refuses to take another track in my book has brains. A dog that it takes many multiple shock treatments before it learns or maybe never learns in my book has no brains. It's hard to single out just one instance because to me you see it in the total dog, not just one thing. My pup I believe is smart or has brains but if she for example can't smell the track then she can be the smartest dog in the world with thousands of hours of experience but just plain can't run it........and no amount of experience is gonna run and un-smellable track either. Other things like being smart enough not to backtrack or being able to figure out if they are running the track in the right direction, while they are things we expect, in my opinion takes some brains. At this point I'm just kind of rambling so I need to quit but I would think most people would agree that there is a difference between having some brains/being smart and gaining experience through running tracks. Having brains allows them to learn from their experiences in the field and each dog will be a little more or a little less intelligent as the next one.

[RDN61]

I'm sure I don't know as much as you guys, but I have to agree with the brain thing. An intelligent dog will learn to use it's nose to the best of it's ability. A babbling idiot will not.