Line Breeding ????

[da ridgetop]

MY OPINION
I think linebreeding programs consistently produce a higher percentage of good pups is line breeding for everybody hell no to have a really good breeding program i think requires a lot of hard work and extensive research of your pedigrees to know the running style and charecteristics of generations of your pedigree,not just one dog and think your gonna have a world beater.If you look back over most all bigname producers somewhere in there pedigree something has been doubled up and most of the time more than once.Can you get a good dog from Fido and Sally absolutely if they both are good dogs and sometimes you can get a good one from 2 $$iteaters.
Donald

[Laneline]

Nothing in dog breeding is clear cut, linebreeding is the method which is used as the best way to both maintain breed type {hunting traits in hounds} and to possibly eliminate genetic health defects from a breed. {of any animal}. For decades it has been used for cattle, race horses, dogs {both hunting and show} and even in fighting chickens. By the government, clubs, individuals, by the educated and uneducated, simply because it works, if it is done right.

Linebreeding is the breeding together of dogs that have a well bred superior common ancestor who has attributes/characteristics that the breeder is attempting to reproduce and bring forth in his/her own line of hounds, and maintain a consistency in future reproduction of the same.

For a breeder who is contemplating linebreeding they must first study some basic genetics and learn how dominant and recessive genes affect the outcome of any breeding attempted. They must learn which attributes are dominant and which are recessive, you have to keep and raise the pups to learn this and resist selling them for profit before you know what they will even become, and you must cull.

Inbreeding is the breeding of close relatives not separated by more than one generation. It will concentrate good qualities in the line but it also concentrates bad qualities. It is a two-edged sword, dogs with “obvious” faults should not be bred, at all, as in “never”. Even if the pedigree is so “red” you think it must be good, and if its not, maybe it will reproduce well?

This is the problem, and it is more of a problem in Beagles and Coon Hounds than any other breeds. Producing desirable/profitable pedigrees has taken priority/precedence over producing “quality” dogs. It has put a bad taste in the mouths of many, simply because there are more people that do it wrong than there are responsible breeders that do it right, in order to make a buck. Though there are some great houndsman out there with some great hounds, there are far more bad examples out there than good ones, which get the most attention.

But if and when it is done right, it is a very good thing.

To answer the question at hand, if the two dogs that you’re going to breed are tight linebred, I would not inbreed them if they are of immediate relation. However, if they do have some out-crosses in the first few generations, it is ok to breed father to daughter or mother to son to tighten up the line and then I would go back to linebreeding. I would never breed full littermates. But again, a person would not want to go this route if “obvious” faults are present.

[m and m beagles]

Thanks for all the comments guys. The 2 in question are both my hounds. The male has Very few faults if he barks your gonna run a rabbit 95% of the time has good hunt, and is very honest mouth while running. The female is his niece and she also is a straight hound. Needs a nose full of rabbit to open and runs a clean line. Her mother as a Rabbit dog. She could have made FC with not problem. She was entered in 1 AKC hunt and put on a rabbit running Demonstration. Both the male and female have good foot and are naturally trash free. I had only concern 1 is that neither one of them have been bred before. His Dad (PPRCH PCH Durbin Valley Hitman) is a proven producer, of lock on track dogs, and her dad (GRPCH PPRCH FC Branko's Red River Runner is throwing a ton of Rabbit dogs.

[Matt Glomski]

In my opinion Travis is making a good cross. Excellent family of dogs. If pups are avaiable I would be getting on a list.

------------------------FC NORTHOWN FROSTY
-----------------GRRCH, PCH, CH DURBIN VALLEY HIT MAN HART
------------------------MUD RIVER LOTTA ANN
------------GRHBCH, GRPCH, GRCH M+M ROCKY ROAD
-------------------------RINEHARTS MIDNIGHT SHADOW
------------------PCH, CH RINEHARTS SIZZLIN SADIE
-------------------------LARSENS COPPER
PUPS
------------------------FC BRANKOS JACKPOT
-------------------FC, GRPCH, RCH BRANKOS RED RIVER RUNNER
-------------------------BRANKOS WATCH ME SIZZLE
---------M+M LITTLE RED
-------------------------GRRCH, PCH, CH DURBIN VALLEY HIT MAN HART
-------------------GRPCH, HBCH M+M DIAMOND IN THE RUFF(akc FWR GLOMSKIS DIAMOND)
-------------------------PCH, CH RINEHARTS SIZZLIN SADIE

Lets start with FC NORTHOWN FROSTY....excellent producer of track dogs. Also two littermates to Frosty made FC.
GRRCH, PCH, CH DURBIN VALLEY HIT MAN HART....Lock on track dog...solo artist...and PRODUCER!!!
MUD RIVER LOTTA ANN...linebreed Annas Ann (Brankos foundation bitch)
GRHBCH, GRPCH, GRCH M+M ROCKY ROAD.....Solid all the way around...straight...all Rockys littermates are solid many holding titles in the field
RINEHARTS MIDNIGHT SHADOW.....Littermate to FC Larsens Jackson, FC Larsens Haley and I believe other field champions....Shadow was never trialed
PCH, CH RINEHARTS SIZZLIN SADIE....littermate to GRRCH Clemens Tuff Nut and GRRCH, PCH Powells Trailaway Toots (both producers as well)
LARSENS COPPER.....Mother of GRRCH, HOY, HOF Powells Turbo Dream Boat, GRRCH, GRHBCH, PCH Powells Turbo Show Boat, PCH Shallow Pond Moody Blue, PCH Sandy Creek Bo, GRRCH Clemens Tuff Nut, GRRCH, PCH Powells Trailaway Toots, PCH Rineharts Sizzlin Sadie....and I am sure there is more.
FC BRANKOS JACKPOT....dont know much about this dog, but I do know he is in some top hounds pedigrees in the Midwest
FC, GRPCH, RCH BRANKOS RED RIVER RUNNER.....Runner has won everywhere he has been dropped and his pups are too. PRODUCER!! Also has a Littermate that is IFC Brankos Trade Sign
BRANKOS WATCH ME SIZZLE....Know nothing more than she is out of FTC Whitneys Mad Max
M+M Little Red.....Has win in Performance Pack....she is solid 13'' female that will make some nooise in the future...her littermate Glomskis Red Runner JR in one of my top prospects.
GRPCH, HBCH M+M DIAMOND IN THE RUFF(akc FWR GLOMSKIS DIAMOND)......as tough of a bitch and you will get. Solid in everyway....I miss her on our hunting trips just as much as Travis does.....TOUGH!!! Littermate to sire of litter GRHBCH, GRPCH, GRCH M+M ROCKY ROAD

[Shady Grove Beagles]

Bobby Vest
I definetly believe in line-breeding.I find it gives me the consistancy in the dogs I'm reproducing,throughout individual litters and over several generations.
Of course I also believe you have to use a pre-potent / proven reproducer as your cornerstone.

[Casey Harner]

In my opinion Travis is making a good cross. Excellent family of dogs. If pups are avaiable I would be getting on a list.

------------------------FC NORTHOWN FROSTY
-----------------GRRCH, PCH, CH DURBIN VALLEY HIT MAN HART
------------------------MUD RIVER LOTTA ANN
------------GRHBCH, GRPCH, GRCH M+M ROCKY ROAD
-------------------------RINEHARTS MIDNIGHT SHADOW
------------------PCH, CH RINEHARTS SIZZLIN SADIE
-------------------------LARSENS COPPER
PUPS
------------------------FC BRANKOS JACKPOT
-------------------FC, GRPCH, RCH BRANKOS RED RIVER RUNNER
-------------------------BRANKOS WATCH ME SIZZLE
---------M+M LITTLE RED
-------------------------GRRCH, PCH, CH DURBIN VALLEY HIT MAN HART
-------------------GRPCH, HBCH M+M DIAMOND IN THE RUFF(akc FWR GLOMSKIS DIAMOND)
-------------------------PCH, CH RINEHARTS SIZZLIN SADIE

Lets start with FC NORTHOWN FROSTY....excellent producer of track dogs. Also two littermates to Frosty made FC.
GRRCH, PCH, CH DURBIN VALLEY HIT MAN HART....Lock on track dog...solo artist...and PRODUCER!!!
MUD RIVER LOTTA ANN...linebreed Annas Ann (Brankos foundation bitch)
GRHBCH, GRPCH, GRCH M+M ROCKY ROAD.....Solid all the way around...straight...all Rockys littermates are solid many holding titles in the field
RINEHARTS MIDNIGHT SHADOW.....Littermate to FC Larsens Jackson, FC Larsens Haley and I believe other field champions....Shadow was never trialed
PCH, CH RINEHARTS SIZZLIN SADIE....littermate to GRRCH Clemens Tuff Nut and GRRCH, PCH Powells Trailaway Toots (both producers as well)
LARSENS COPPER.....Mother of GRRCH, HOY, HOF Powells Turbo Dream Boat, GRRCH, GRHBCH, PCH Powells Turbo Show Boat, PCH Shallow Pond Moody Blue, PCH Sandy Creek Bo, GRRCH Clemens Tuff Nut, GRRCH, PCH Powells Trailaway Toots, PCH Rineharts Sizzlin Sadie....and I am sure there is more.
FC BRANKOS JACKPOT....dont know much about this dog, but I do know he is in some top hounds pedigrees in the Midwest
FC, GRPCH, RCH BRANKOS RED RIVER RUNNER.....Runner has won everywhere he has been dropped and his pups are too. PRODUCER!! Also has a Littermate that is IFC Brankos Trade Sign
BRANKOS WATCH ME SIZZLE....Know nothing more than she is out of FTC Whitneys Mad Max
M+M Little Red.....Has win in Performance Pack....she is solid 13'' female that will make some nooise in the future...her littermate Glomskis Red Runner JR in one of my top prospects.
GRPCH, HBCH M+M DIAMOND IN THE RUFF(akc FWR GLOMSKIS DIAMOND)......as tough of a bitch and you will get. Solid in everyway....I miss her on our hunting trips just as much as Travis does.....TOUGH!!! Littermate to sire of litter GRHBCH, GRPCH, GRCH M+M ROCKY ROAD

Thanks for the history lesson Dad.

[foxxy]

lol matt your dad and travis your bro lol haha i know who was the cull haha u casey haha just messing with ya
i

In my opinion Travis is making a good cross. Excellent family of dogs. If pups are avaiable I would be getting on a list.

------------------------FC NORTHOWN FROSTY
-----------------GRRCH, PCH, CH DURBIN VALLEY HIT MAN HART
------------------------MUD RIVER LOTTA ANN
------------GRHBCH, GRPCH, GRCH M+M ROCKY ROAD
-------------------------RINEHARTS MIDNIGHT SHADOW
------------------PCH, CH RINEHARTS SIZZLIN SADIE
-------------------------LARSENS COPPER
PUPS
------------------------FC BRANKOS JACKPOT
-------------------FC, GRPCH, RCH BRANKOS RED RIVER RUNNER
-------------------------BRANKOS WATCH ME SIZZLE
---------M+M LITTLE RED
-------------------------GRRCH, PCH, CH DURBIN VALLEY HIT MAN HART
-------------------GRPCH, HBCH M+M DIAMOND IN THE RUFF(akc FWR GLOMSKIS DIAMOND)
-------------------------PCH, CH RINEHARTS SIZZLIN SADIE

Lets start with FC NORTHOWN FROSTY....excellent producer of track dogs. Also two littermates to Frosty made FC.
GRRCH, PCH, CH DURBIN VALLEY HIT MAN HART....Lock on track dog...solo artist...and PRODUCER!!!
MUD RIVER LOTTA ANN...linebreed Annas Ann (Brankos foundation bitch)
GRHBCH, GRPCH, GRCH M+M ROCKY ROAD.....Solid all the way around...straight...all Rockys littermates are solid many holding titles in the field
RINEHARTS MIDNIGHT SHADOW.....Littermate to FC Larsens Jackson, FC Larsens Haley and I believe other field champions....Shadow was never trialed
PCH, CH RINEHARTS SIZZLIN SADIE....littermate to GRRCH Clemens Tuff Nut and GRRCH, PCH Powells Trailaway Toots (both producers as well)
LARSENS COPPER.....Mother of GRRCH, HOY, HOF Powells Turbo Dream Boat, GRRCH, GRHBCH, PCH Powells Turbo Show Boat, PCH Shallow Pond Moody Blue, PCH Sandy Creek Bo, GRRCH Clemens Tuff Nut, GRRCH, PCH Powells Trailaway Toots, PCH Rineharts Sizzlin Sadie....and I am sure there is more.
FC BRANKOS JACKPOT....dont know much about this dog, but I do know he is in some top hounds pedigrees in the Midwest
FC, GRPCH, RCH BRANKOS RED RIVER RUNNER.....Runner has won everywhere he has been dropped and his pups are too. PRODUCER!! Also has a Littermate that is IFC Brankos Trade Sign
BRANKOS WATCH ME SIZZLE....Know nothing more than she is out of FTC Whitneys Mad Max
M+M Little Red.....Has win in Performance Pack....she is solid 13'' female that will make some nooise in the future...her littermate Glomskis Red Runner JR in one of my top prospects.
GRPCH, HBCH M+M DIAMOND IN THE RUFF(akc FWR GLOMSKIS DIAMOND)......as tough of a bitch and you will get. Solid in everyway....I miss her on our hunting trips just as much as Travis does.....TOUGH!!! Littermate to sire of litter GRHBCH, GRPCH, GRCH M+M ROCKY ROAD

Thanks for the history lesson Dad.

[m and m beagles]

Casey that wasn't a History lesson a lot of those dogs are around today. If any thing its a lesson on Future Butt Whippin's. This line of hounds are your new found Hair or Hole Craze!!!! You just had yours eyes opened too it. You have now seen the light!!!! Its all you can think of day and night...night and day.

[Bobby Vest]

Shady Grove, I agree with you completely. It's a touchy subjectv to a lot of people, just like religion and politics. I have had some people get so offended just like it was incest in people. I don't usually bring the subject up unless I know it's a breeder that understands or someone truly interested in learning. I would have to say Dexter Reffet has done more research and knows more about linebreeding than anyone I have ever sat down and talked to. He not only has the knowledge he has proved it in the breeding pen where it counts. I won't say it gives you the best hounds there are but it gives you a bleuprint to consistently lock in on the traits you want.

[Casey Harner]

Casey that wasn't a History lesson a lot of those dogs are around today. If any thing its a lesson on Future Butt Whippin's. This line of hounds are your new found Hair or Hole Craze!!!! You just had yours eyes opened too it. You have now seen the light!!!! Its all you can think of day and night...night and day.

The only thing I think about these days are sleeping on the couch at your house, wrapped up in the pink snuggie....

[TheLittleBlackBook]

Litle Black Book---Jack
You. Sir, are just what I was talking about. Self announce yourself an expert for profit. Funny how all others share their knowledge including me, but you sell yours!
How much are you, the medical expert and breeding expert making off your Little Black Book? Like I said, be an expert and make money off those foolish enough to pay you!!! You, SIR, prove what I said.

Most experts are able to profit by their expertise, as they should for putting in the amount of time and effort they do to get that way.

As for "giving away" information, the truth is most of the "opinions" that get given away on message boards are worth the prince, which is nothing or not much, precisely because said opnions are either 100% wrong or they are missing key elements. The truth is, to give a completely comprehensive response to most of the questions and subjects that get brought-up takes time and effort to cover adequately, not the typical "one-line" responses that are the norm to see in forums. In keeping with this, a quick check of the health section will clearly show that I in fact do "give away" plenty of my own information also ... most of it pretty indepth ... and yet in that same health forum there seems to be nothing "given away" by you

Furthermore, regarding free information, and the time and effort to put up truly indepth and quality information, in point of fact I have been working on a free Sporting Dog Blog to do just that: give away good info. I am only about half-way finished with it, but I think even you might find some of the information I have up there so far to be of benefit:

http://www.johnkoerner.org/SportingDogBlog

You are more than welcome to use it to your benefit, and what I have up there is mostly exerpts from my book that I don't mind sharing, just to help out. Now, I would be more than happy to compare the amount of "free information" I have given away to what you have given away any time you like. And finally, yes I do sell my book. After spending $1700 on the Adobe Design Premium software package required to create it, and after spending the 2+ years in sitting down to write it, organize the hundreds of photos and diagrams, etc. (not to mention putting-in the 20-plus years of time it took to learn what I know), I feel I am entitled to charge $65 for the 400-pages of solid information that bare the fruits of my labors. As for the "fools" who pay me, you are welcome to read my testimonials ... and to check out the responses here in the advertising section ... because the fact is I haven't received a single complaint from anyone yet ... but I sure do have a lot of people who are glad they bought the information ... and who have referred their friends to me to obtain a copy of their own.

Litle Black Book---Jack
Can a good dog come off inbreeding, sure, I know of a few pen bred dogs that are good dogs but the owner had to CULL WISELY. It usually goes something like this "My ol Susie dog got bred by her brother, uncle or whatever, when he dug under and they hung up. Cost too much to go to the Vet and get her aborted and don't want her spayed, so I guess I'll keep them and see how they turn out" Any of you boys want one?" Loud, Resounding Answer: NO! To think that is the way to go and that YOU must be more educated, smarter, more experienced, wiser, is pure nonsense.

Well John, your rendition of "how" the people you know get their inbreedings (through accidental kennel mishaps) just goes to show that they aren't even sophisticated enough as dogmen to keep their dogs separated properly when the bitch is in heat. To compare this kind of ignorant, unprofessional "animal husbandry" to a well-thought-out linebreeding program conducted by a professional is utterly laughable. If that is your own personal story as to how your "experience" with line- and inbreeding was gained, it is little wonder you have never been successful as a breeder.

So, no, that is not the way I think a breeder should "go," by making unplanned breedings for no other reason they are incompetent caregivers (who can't even keep their dogs separated properly). Thus, in the end, the only "nonsense" posted here is for you to compare this kind of utter beginner incompetence to an intelligent linebreeding program.

Litle Black Book---Jack
By far Beaglers that are more educated, experienced, wiser, etc. do not inbreed or close breed. The great majority of Beaglers don't believe in it so I'm in pretty good company and If I'm ignorant, so is 90 plus percent of Beaglers! Only 10 percent or less agree with you,

Um, John, even on this thread the more educated and successful breeders are agreeing that linebreeding is the way to go. The truth is, you seem to be your only fan here.

Litle Black Book---Jack
so, WATCH OUT JACK< YOU MAY BE HURTNG BOOK SALES! Need to be a better politician! You say it is no mystery to it, but your ad says 20 years of BREEDING SECRETS! Secrets Jack! Come on.

You seem to be obsessed with my book sales for some reason, and you seem to have a deep resentment for anyone "profiting" by offering fellow dogmen legitimately good information. I am not sure what has caused this disorder in your thinking, but nothing I have said will hurt my book sales. If anything, our discussion shows the difference between correct, orderly thinking (and an actual knowledge of breeding) versus pure ignorance. As for being a politician, I must admit I wouldn't cut it as a politician, because I am too blunt and direct for that. Diplomacy is not one of my strengths, but direct and brutal honesty is.

Litle Black Book---Jack
If it was true, we, meaning me too, would all own hounds that were inbred and close bred.
Believe me, if that type breeding jumped and ran a rabbit better than others or what I have now, I would only have inbred, close bred, in my kennel. They don't so I don't!

We? Do you have a mouse in your pocket? As best as I can tell, you are your only fan here, and you are not a person of any significance as a breeder of dogs. Thus it seems to me that what "you" (and your mouse) do is of little consequence in the world of beagles. As I said, the best breeders of ALL breed types (meaning the most prolific breeders, with the longest records of repeated success) base ALL of their success on a linebreeding program off of truly excellent animals. What happens in an accidental breeding in a novice's "pen," when his two mediocre doggies breed due to ownership incompetence, has nothing to do with the value of studying the success of professional dogmen who form a linebreeding program on truly excellent animals. In reality, for you to try to draw a comparison between the two polar opposite methods of "breeding" really just shows the level you're at as a serious fancier: the bottom.

Anyway, I have spent too much time already debating nonsense with you. My original post simply intended to clarify the difference between successful line- and inbreeding efforts, and unsuccessful ones, and that has everything to do with selection as to which individuals get plugged-into the line- and inbreeding formulas. As I said, inbreeding and linebreeding merely accelerate the results, which results will be either excellent or miserable depending on the level of research and true understanding of the quality of animals that are being used. Your post, AlabamaJohn, just goes to show what happens when absolutely no thought and no standards get used, and thereby underscores how NOT to inbreed dogs.

Meanwhile, the fine animals that have been displayed here on this thread by other, and more successful, fanciers all go to show that linebreeding is what successful dogmen practice.




____________________________________________________________________
____________________________________________________________________

Little Black Book
Thank you for your post.Although I have never met you you sound as if you are well versed and educated to the subject at hand.I've been keeping hounds for the past 44 years and have run them on most species of game chaseable from hare to bear.I never cease to be amazed at some of the convoluted ideas that many so called "dogmen" come up with.

Thank you for taking the time to comment, ShadyGrove, I appreciate it. The posts by you, Laneline, Ridgetop and others are nice to read.

Jack




.

[Alabama John]

Jack,

You are off on a few things though and I will take the time trying to help you.

What I posted is from experience and since a lot of folks that come on here are seeking help with one thing or another, I've tried to share my experiences. To see how close breeding of beagles is done, look at the Brace beagles who are the most successful in following pedigrees than any I've seen. I've followed so many as I was once very acitive in that trial program way before there was any of these ARHA registries. I know of what I speak about the problems that come with close breeding and have seen it with my own eyes many times.

There is one cry heard among those that follow that breeding system and it "Cull Hard"! Why? What does that mean? Lets look at a few ages of close bred pups and see what that means.

A litter first born: Cull hard then? How if no birth defects show up? If obvious defects do show, then cull hard must be followed.
Pups 6 weeks old and from a well known line so all are spoken for. Cull hard? 8 pups we'll say, who bought the ones to be culled and who didn't? Do the breeders wait until later before selling any to see if there are any mental, shyness, etc, defects? Pups now running, cull hard then? What is possibly seen to cause culling hard?

You assume my breeding program is a bust. Far from it, I have a litter every few years and they are never man or gun shy, good loud mouths, not mouthy, not trashy at all, plenty of sence and all hunt good and run fast after these Canecutters. Several have been down here with FC and GFC and can attest to that, but most beaglers do not have or want a computer and kid me for being on here wasting my time they say.

My main question is: Where are these dogs that have been close bred for generations say 5or 6 or more that by now must be far superior to any of us that don't close breed? Surely by now those outstanding traits have been locked in. I just don't trial but seldom, but when I do, have always been in the top 10 wherever I've been and that was always with a dog that had never been to a trail before or since.

Breed whateverway you please, but please don't take a superior knowledge attitude. That is what bothers me the most.

[RiverBottom]

Can't let John take all this without sticking up for him

John is one of the few people on this board that I have actualy learned from. Not only that, I enjoy reading his posts a lot

No one is wrong here. Linebreeding and inbreeding are very useful tools. But they are just tools. Just because you use them doesn't make you a great breeder. You can breed good dogs, year after year without linebreeding. Here's a couple examples:

Frank Gillard was the huntsman for the Belvoir Hounds and was one of the greatest hound breeders of all time. He did not want to see any hound listed more than once in the first seven generations of any pedigree. I could tell you more, but you can do your own research.

A modern day houndsman that has had a bigger impact on the Treeing Walker breed than any other breeder is Frank Giddings. Study the pedigrees on his dogs and you will see very little linebreeding.

From my own experience, inbreeding (linebreeding is just watered down inbreeding) locks in traits both good and bad. But it very seldom produces great hounds. Outcrossing can produce great hounds that are better than either parent, once in a great while. Those great hounds very seldom throw pups as good as themselves.

Selection is by far and away the most important tool any breeder can use. Selection is so much more important than either inbreeding or outcrossing that they are hardly worth arguing about.

[Alabama John]

Thanks RiverBottom,

Good to see one other real houndsman on here!! ha ha, LOL

You hit the real key, said it well. "selection".

Speaking of myself, I have never bred to a dog I didn't hunt with on at least one full day and by far most often, many days.
Some were tied out back farmers dogs, some FC and a couple were Grands, all in Little Pack as that is the style WE ( meaning the mouse in my pocket) and the other houndsmen around here that I run with.

Style and outstanding ability in the traits we look for is what causes us to breed to a stud that very obviously has the same traits as our best female. Just happened to see one like that while hunting the second day here and asked to breed to him. Found out later he was a Grand Champion in Little Pack. All I knew is that they called him Cliff. His whole name was Skyview Cliff. I didn't care if he was named Backtrack Mike. I liked all about his performance and how he fitted in with mine. He didn't dominate by any means, but fit in and I saw that. Those that knew him now have a point of reference what type of dog I breed here. They are pretty fast footed, especially in the swamps.

I agree RiverBottom, they are seldom better than the sire and dam so better breed the best you can find to the best you have and be happy if they turn out to be as good as those.

Ever notice how the high priced stud owners claim it was their breeding that produced the pup in the litter that turned out good and your female that produced the bad pups. Sometimes out of the same litter! Ha, Ha, but fun!

[Alabama John]

OK Jack,

Tell us your success in breeding for the last 20 years! Not theory, just the blunt facts of what YOU have done with your breeding secrets so all can judge if the secrets you sell are worth paying for.

Here's your chance to shine!!! let it go and brag on YOUR dogs which I notice have not been mentioned. Maybe you are modest, but, I don't think so.

I invite any to come run here with mine and we usually kill 10-40 rabbits each hunt. Will you do the same?

After all, its what happens when the tailgate drops that really matters isn't it!

I think you are a pompous ass only looking to sell a book and not a houndsman at all. Please prove me wrong. Your kind is not new in Beagling but they don't last long before they are found out.