you decide

[dogwhisperer]

Registered: 10/28/04
Posts: 325
Loc: Blaine, Tn To: All Watchdog Committee Members
From: Fred Hausmann/Little Pack Division
Subject: Deer Question

We had a thing happen at the Kentucky Hounds Man Benefit hunt that has raised a few questions. Please look over the following examples and send a response to Mike Klaiber and myself.
We will come up with an answer to let the clubs know how the situation should be handled.

Example #1: You are in a cast and the Strike is open. A dog comes across a baby fawn around 2 days old. The dog attacks the fawn and kills it. The dog never let the fawn up. What should be done?

Example #2: You are in a cast and the strike is open. A dog comes across a baby fawn and attacks it. During the attack, the fawn tries to get away and travels 5 to 10 feet from where the dog attacked it before the dog kills it. What do you do?

Example #3: You are in a cast and the dogs are running a rabbit and the dogs come across a baby fawn and attack it. What do you do?

This is the response from the Watchdog Committee for the above questions:

In Example 1 and 3, The Fawn was not ran by the hound or hounds. In these two examples, the hound or hounds should be moved from the area and not be disqualified.

In Example 2, The hound or hounds did run the fawn 5 to 10 feet and should be disqualified by following IXG3 of the ARHA Rules.
If you have any questions, please give Mike Kliaber a call at 1-740-532-9653.

Fred Hausmann _________________________
If you died today would you go to Heaven or Hell? Thank God for forgiveness!

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[dogwhisperer]

In my opinion if you dont scratch a dog for killing a deer whatever be its age then you shouldnt scratch one for chasing after it 10 feet and not barking.They didnt say rather the dog was barking or not in example 2 but this is the way i read it.If they are meaning scratch a dog if its barking or not while killing a moving deer then we now have to minus dogs for catching any thing but a rabbit for not producing right? JMO

[BCBeagles]

It is OFF game. Disqualification on ALL examples. They are stressing the pursuit part. If left unmolested they DID NOT pursue it. If attacked they made advances and PURSUED with intent to kill. JMO.

[Joeyman]

I saw a beagle chase a butterfly once and it had intent to kill it.

[mdbeagler]

I say they should be scratched, if they kill a deer they will probably
more than likely chase a deer. When dogs run to catch a rabbit it isn't
to say Hi, they are running to catch and kill. Why would a deer be any
different?

[Mapel Valley Kennels LLC.]

UHHHH, Ur kinda answering ur question.In order to scratch a dog for off game it must run and or pursue it. If it was attacked by hounds and killed another story but they didnt run it only eat it correct? Cant scratch for that. I dont know of the particulars of ur situation but, i could see where ya got a compliant. Very seldom will a protest be overturned, they cant get people too judge now, unless it is a flagrant foul, moh will rule in judges favor.Been there done that.Anytime people get involed somethings gonna be interperated wrong...............The correct thing to do would probaly cut off a leg of the dead fawn tie dogs to tree and beat em half to death with it, problem would have been more than likely cured then.When it needed to be done. Too many people are taking mouthy deer running pieces of shitz too hunts now, and eiether praying there is no deer in there cast or deer breaking em while at a hunt, at the whole packs expense,Once again why would anyone take a 1 yr ol dog to a hunt? Its on here all the time.Just saying.

[Mapel Valley Kennels LLC.]

Sorry read wrong 1-3 what can ya do? 2 scratch then kick his azz all the way back to truck.

[dogwhisperer]

UHHHH, Ur kinda answering ur question.In order to scratch a dog for off game it must run and or pursue it. If it was attacked by hounds and killed another story but they didnt run it only eat it correct? Cant scratch for that. I dont know of the particulars of ur situation but, i could see where ya got a compliant. Very seldom will a protest be overturned, they cant get people too judge now, unless it is a flagrant foul, moh will rule in judges favor.Been there done that.Anytime people get involed somethings gonna be interperated wrong...............The correct thing to do would probaly cut off a leg of the dead fawn tie dogs to tree and beat em half to death with it, problem would have been more than likely cured then.When it needed to be done. Too many people are taking mouthy deer running pieces of shitz too hunts now, and eiether praying there is no deer in there cast or deer breaking em while at a hunt, at the whole packs expense,Once again why would anyone take a 1 yr ol dog to a hunt? Its on here all the time.Just saying.

This didnt happen to me,this was posted on the arha website and i brought it to this site for everyone to ponder over.Above was written by fred housman the questions and answers from the board committe.My definition of running game is giving mouth and pursuing not chasing 10 feet.

[old blood beagles]

Lets flip it around dogwhisperer, if your dog jumped a baby rabbit out of the bed and ran it for 10 feet without a bark and caught it, should you get any points? If you say no then that is what the ruleing should be on the fawn, if you said yes then it should be picked up.

[dogwhisperer]

Lets flip it around dogwhisperer, if your dog jumped a baby rabbit out of the bed and ran it for 10 feet without a bark and caught it, should you get any points? If you say no then that is what the ruleing should be on the fawn, if you said yes then it should be picked up.

If it jumped from its set up jump strike 40 points on the board due to the rules.But if you follow there examples and using the flip side like your saying if the dog catches the rabbit without it moving No points but if it chases the rabbit points are awarded.TRust me i agree with you and may just be reading to into it.In the rules it clearly states that a dog can be awarded a jump strike without barking there is nothing in the rules about off game without barking{thats all im saying} Many people have different oppinions about this and the only ones that matter are the rules committe

[swing]

I will keep my comment to myself lol

[old blood beagles]

jump on in the water is warm

[barryc]

All I can say is WOW! ok maybe not all I can say, They kill a deer and you ARHA guys still want to keep them around and make them rabbit champs! Hmmmmm what's wrong with this picture. You boys should be getting them rules changed because it sure does sound like they promote a deer dog.

[old blood beagles]

I am not an ARHA guy. I dont agree with some of their rules and how they score hounds. I am an AKC Mid-West guy. I think that a hound should be scored on overall performance and that is what the AKC does.

[warddog]

The rules say to run off game and goes on to explain deer as being such off game. To run is to hunt which has nothing to do with giving mouth or not but rather to search out, find something or pursue with the intent to capture. It would be my interpretation that in all the cited cases the dog (s) pursued the fawn deer and in fact captured it and therefore all would be scratched for running off game namely deer. It makes no difference whether it was a fawn that popped up in their face or a prime buck fact is they searched out and pursued a deer.