Where is all The Hunt Going

[cris axtell/coal hill ken]

last post was mine

[MasonsBeagles]

I agree that super jump dogs are hard to find. But what Im getting at is hard hunting hounds. Just because they are hard hunting doesnt always mean that your going to get a super jump dog. But I am talking about at least giving you something to work with. About eight years ago there were several kill themselves hunting hounds out there and know the ones I know of are the ones still living from back then. When I run with someone and they mention the bloodlines they are running or go to a trial and someone says that dog is out of so and so. I really watch these hounds and the biggest thing missing is the hard hunt. Know when the rabbit is up the race is on. But if no rabbit is jumped by a handler/hunter or another dog it is just a waste of time.

This post is just to get people to thinking. I have noticed this about certain bloodlines over the last couple of years. It seemed to me that the same bloodlines were throwing a harder hitting/hunting hound just several years back. Know they are track running fools but would jump a rabbit to save there life. It hit home when a friend of mine told me the other day that a guy should keep a young pup he had cause the hard hunt is so hard to find. I sat back and wondered if others are noticing this too or if it is just a couple of us KY guys that dont realize their is more to the world on the other side of the Ohio River..lol

This is not about any bloodline in particular this is alot of bloodlines across the board. Not wanting to bash. But if someone gets offended I am sorry and they should probably think about the way they are breeding hounds.

[swing]

I agree with what your saying Will, the trial I went to this weekend I noticed them trying to hurry up and get the rabbit up for the dogs instead of letting the dogs do the work.( I stood their saying to myself, why not let the dogs find it)
I also understand what Fuzz was saying, do to time limit tho.
I think they need to cut the dogs loose and stand there and let the dogs find the rabbit and let the handler call the strike then start running over them.
To me I have been to AKC, UKC, NKC, P.P. is the better format as far as hunting dogs the way I see it, if they will let the dogs run at the speed they are able to run as long as they are staying on the rabbit, thats what I see the problem is with P.P., I havent been to all that many P.P. trials tho, I have heard they will pick up a dog for running out ahead of the pack, if they are running the rabbit right, they are picking up the wrong dog the way I see it.

[Robert W. Mccoy Jr]

Swing in PP if they pick up the dog out front just for being to fast then they are not judging by the rules.





I agree you can never have enough hunt.

[Incahoots]

I run UKC so I'm no AKC seasoned trialer but seems judges have alot of power to pick dogs they like over actual best dog. The rules I've read are kinda vague in some ways and can be used toward a preferance of judges. I don't understand why in any trial a dog would be put onto the scent line tho. Each dog should have to find it or honor the other dogs.

I like the idea that IF I am well read on the rules and regs I am a contributer to deciding best dog and final outcome.

However, like any ruleset it's only as good as the most and least honest people out there. I'm just glad my dogs have "hunt"!

[GREG WELLS]

When a cast is turned loose I make sure all the dogs are hunting and try to work them in the brush and then I want a rabbit as soon as possible. If you don't do it this way you are going to waste a lot of time. I will mark down which dogs lacked hunt or looked like a real hard hunter and this may effect my decision between two dogs later in the hunt if they are close on score. Some people want a cut and dry score on every aspect of a trial. In my opinion a judge should look at everything a hound does good and bad. Try not to overreacte when a dog messes up or get too excited when a dog does something great. A judge must weigh the good and bad and look at the overall picture at how every hound is contributing to the run. I got a little off track, but back to the hunt issue. I agree that in AKC , there is more emphasis put on how the dogs run after the rabbit is up than before, but this is due to time and trying to give every dog adequate running time. Remember the same two judges must judge every pack in an AKC trial. AKC has made a rule that any dog that absolutely doesn't hunt at all must be disqualified by the judges. I had always thought it would be a good idea if AKC could have trials for field champions that soley scored dogs for hunt and jump ability and give a special title for dogs that could win that type of trial also. Then you might see which field champions were the complete hunting dogs; ones that could not only out track, but out hunt thier packmates.

[Hare Hunter]

I can recall posts in the past about how close hounds must "hunt" for their owners. Many, many of the replys said if their dogs got out very far they had trained them with shock collars to stay close, now i'm no expert but all my dogs HUNT, I have only ever had two in my forty some years of beagling that did not, they were bought as running dogs, did not hunt and would run the dickens out of a rabbit when one was up, they were moved on to other hunters that were told exactly what I had observed with them. I believe some of the hunt is being taken out of hounds by handlers, just my .02 cents worth, not trying to tell folks how to train their hounds, don't want to pi%& anyone off, just my humble opion. Hare

[HatterasBob]

I have a 13" male that has as much hunt as any dog can have. He jumps his fair share, but he is not a GREAT jump dog but a good one. He is also my slowest dog, at medium fast. If you can't out run Boomer you can't eat my feed. I've been starting alot of pups for about a year. I start them at 10-12 weeks and they all have tremendous hunt. I think starting them early has alot to do with how much hunt you will end up with. I just returned a 5 month old gyp to her owner Sunday, and he was offered $500 for her on the spot and wouldn't sell. My advise is start them young, it works for me. If we pickup hounds without hunt, there would be fewer of them.

[James Carman]

What type of AKC trials are you attending? We never use the same rabbit twice. There is the fear of catching the rabbit if run too long. These dogs can smoke a rabbit. Yes, there is too much of jumping the rabbit in the name of saving time but the hounds must take part in the search. If they, don't they are sent to the truck.

[Dogdreamer]

I don't think hunt has as much to do with when you start them as how they were bred. I agree with Will (Mason). People are looking for certain traits to win trials and it can make a more reserved dog. Some folks would say it is a more refined hound but I disagree. When you breed for certain characteristics and temperaments as much as the trials promote you take the individuality out of a litters. Besides, refined is a word that sissy west coast show kennels use.

Imagine this...the guys who trial exlusively have an exclusive choice of hounds with which to cross breed. At first this sounds great, but consider the implications of having such a shallow gene pool to breed into. With the fewer lines to breed to you will start to get the traits refined to a point that the hounds are doing less thinking and more in-bred "mimmicking." Much the same as one of your children or grandchildren stand or have mannerisms like a great grandfather that they never met. How can you explain their actions...they weren't taught to do it, they just do. Dogs are even more susceptible to this because of the number of times that they have been crossed within the same bloodline. The result is dogs that mimmick the hunt of their predecessors. Obviously, this isn't all bad until breeders start focusing on individual actions that they want to see intimidated and stop worrying about how intelligent the dog is.

I think the best guage of the hunt of an animal is actually a combination of intelligence and desire. The problem, however, with an intelligent hound is that they are usually difficult to handle. Ask a vet, they will tell you that hounds are one of the smartest breeds alive (like us beaglers need to hear that), but they will also tell you that an intelligent hound will "train" you if you are not careful.

At a young age I had a male redbone that had me eating out of his palm. The vet gave me some advice and it changed our relationship. He was content not being alpha male as long as he could dupe me into giving him what he wanted in exchange. I thought he was stupid and lazy. It was the other way around. I think a lot of people will give up on an intelligent dog because they are difficult.

I know a guy in Indy that told me he hated one of his dogs. He wanted to shoot him, give him away, or make the breeder take him back. This beagle found ways out of the kennel to run rabbits, wouldn't come in when told to, dug a hole under his kennel and a females to get with her. He was so mean that my friend said he had to carry a switch in the woods with him when he ran. Would you keep this dog? He did. Now he says that he wouldn't want to hunt behind any other dog he has seen. The dog is just plain intelligent.

Desire has to be a staple of hunt. We have all seen dogs that could care less if they were running rabbits. Those dogs have to go. When the tailgate drops...you know the rest. How many guys are actually breeding for that trait first? My hounds lived in the house with my wife and kids while I was gone. My wife couldn't keep them quiet so she just brought them inside. Three weeks after I got home they were circling rabbits. No trainer dog, no starting pen, no real previous experience with rabbits. Three days a week and BLAM! They were runnning rabbits. They still have a lot of learning to do but I am content to let them do it on their own and see what happens. My breeder told me that two traits he breeds for are desire and intelligence. Nobody likes a stupid dog, much less a lazy stupid one.

My uncle had a dog that would run all day long by itself until it literally collapsed of exhaustion. You can't teach that, but that is hunt. You pair it with intelligence and you have a dog that wants to run and finds a way to do it better.

My ten cents...too long to be two.

[tommyg]

No slam on Dexter his hounds hunt good. So do the Pine Mt. Dogs I have that go back to Wayne Gross's Kingswood Trex. I am sitting fine on hunt. Just looking at other bigger named hounds and it is just not there. The blood I am running is good to go. Not being kennel blind just observations Ive made.

Got to love them Kingwood bread hounds,ton of hunt.

[MasonsBeagles]

Good reply Greg. Glad to see judges do look at the sort of thing. It seems to me that clubs could at least have a non AKC certification on the FC. Kind of a Breeders bragging rights trial. dont know. I will say that out of all the formats that I have watched and ran in I like AKC alot better. Certain things that if you could pick and choose to make on super format but for the most part I think it is the best thing going. I feel like it is the most consistent format since you have the same judges the whole time. The exact rule formats while fine to an extent I think leave alot to be desired because there are alot more to a rabbit race than the straight aways and alot more to a rabbit race than three minute strikes and fifteen second checks. I like judges descretion too.

[Hardtime01]

To much desire for faster and front running hounds. The old men I learned hunting from said if you bred a hound for hunting and trailing, then speed would take care of itself.

[pete young]

Good topic Will.

I agree with pretty much everything said on this topic. Hunt is the most important thing. If a dog will hunt, and I mean HUNT, then the rest will come with experience. That being said, I love a smart dog! They seem to be in the right spot all of the time. Kinda like a good rebounder in basketball (GO CATS!). The thing that gets me is how no one that likes these "non hunting" dogs will ever chime in and give the reasons why they don't care about how hard a dog hunts. It's obvious that someone likes them. There are too many dogs that are running in the trials that are basically pathbeaters. I haven't been to very many Little Pack trials, so i really can't lump them into the same category, but the AKC trials do allow for a dog that doesn't have to beat the brush. The dogs can wander around until another dog or someone jumps the rabbit and then join in. I know that they are reading "the speach" before every trial about how AKC is demanding that a dog shows search ability or it will be picked up, but too few judges (not all judges) are actually enforcing the rule. It just seams to me that if the judges really care about the sport that they have dedicated so much of their heart and soul, they would put more emphasis on hunt. I can't imagine that anyone ever intended for a dog that had little or no hunt to have the initials FC in front of their name.

[Randy H]

What is this about AKC hounds with no hunt, I have to say dont form your opinion on how a hound hunts at a field trial.FIeld trials are all about the chase,yes its nice to have the hounds to start the track but the hunt has to end and the race is what really matters, even in NKC with just an hour to an half hour the handlers still kick brush cause they know its all about the chase. Tally ho is a very good word in the trials.

Now take those same hounds and a gun to the woods,this is where you take a look at the hounds. Gun hunting will tell you just what kind of hound you have.