Where is all The Hunt Going

pete young · Post by **pete young** » Tue Nov 23, 2004 6:09 pm

The trial should not be "all about the chase". I understand time constraints, but why judge them on anything if you are not going to judge them on everthing? I didn't mean to come across as saying that none or even most of the dogs at the AKC trials don't have good hunt, because that is not true, but i have seen several dogs stay down that didn't show me any hunt at all. That is not right no matter how you judge the race. It should be the "best dog" that wins. How can you say that a dog deserves to win a trial based soley on how it ran the track? If we are looking for good gundogs and want the best ones to have the title as Field Champion, then we should take the time to determine that in "the feild". You say judge them while gunhunting. Ok! I thought that was what the format was trying to imitate? They even fire some sort of shot (cap gun) over them while they are running. If it is not a good test..........then why honor them with a title? Why not do it right?

Randy H · Post by **Randy H** » Tue Nov 23, 2004 6:31 pm

Pete,your right the best hound should win. I really like to watch the chase from the start to the finish. If you really feel so strongly about this I would like to see you meet all the requirements for becoming an AKC judge.You could make a change in an area you feel is lacking in effort.

pete young · Post by **pete young** » Tue Nov 23, 2004 6:47 pm

You're right. If i feel that strongly, I should try to become a judge. It's like someone complaining about who got elected as President without voting. I am like most people though (I think?), I don't have the time to commit myself to something that time consuming. I do respect the people that try to judge fairly and I think most of them do. I don't want to come across as someone who is complaining about judges, because that is not the case at all. I just think that "hunt" should be just as much of the element of what makes a good dog as anything else. I think that for the most part AKC Mid-West is doing a great job at picking good hounds as winners. I enjoy it, win or lose.

MasonsBeagles · Post by **MasonsBeagles** » Tue Nov 23, 2004 6:56 pm

the observations Ive made have been in trials, hunting and fun running.

Funny thing Pete the guys that are breeding no hunting hounds swear they are breeding hard hunting hounds.

pete young · Post by **pete young** » Tue Nov 23, 2004 7:05 pm

I know that there are a lot of different oppinions on what makes a good dog a good dog. It's kind of like Ford vs. Chevy. I know that there are a lot better dogs out there than mine, but I guess when it all comes down to it we feed what we like and mine better hunt or someone else is going to feed them.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Tue Nov 23, 2004 8:39 pm

What's required and tested for, what gains you the most reward(points) is where your strong suite is going to be in the trials. The pendulum swings with the fad...Patch

Robert W. Mccoy Jr · Post by **Robert W. Mccoy Jr** » Tue Nov 23, 2004 8:43 pm

I'll second the Kingwood dogs hunt.

The hardest hunting male I know of up here around me is Kingwoood breed.

That dog hits the ground running and I gunned him for a year and a half before I sold him to a freind.

I never seen that dog get tired. Not once. He would out hunt all the other dogs I have ever owned or own.

sstrong · Post by **sstrong** » Wed Nov 24, 2004 6:57 am

I think that before a dog is given a F.C title, in any format,he or she should have to show the judges and the gallery that he can hunt up and circle his own rabbit by itself. A title should be a special achievment showing us that this dog is the whole package. If it dont have enough hunt to get in a brush pile and put out a rabbit then should it recieve a title for the way it can run one? A dog can't reproduce desire if it don't have any itself. If a handler has to get up the rabbit, then he might as well go ahead and chase it because he has allready done the hard part. Right?

TC · Post by TC » Wed Nov 24, 2004 8:58 am

sstrong wrote:I think that before a dog is given a F.C title, in any format,he or she should have to show the judges and the gallery that he can hunt up and circle his own rabbit by itself. A title should be a special achievment showing us that this dog is the whole package. If it dont have enough hunt to get in a brush pile and put out a rabbit then should it recieve a title for the way it can run one? A dog can't reproduce desire if it don't have any itself. If a handler has to get up the rabbit, then he might as well go ahead and chase it because he has allready done the hard part. Right?

I Agree If they Cannot get one Up on thier own What Good are they???

TomMN · Post by **TomMN** » Wed Nov 24, 2004 12:55 pm

I haven't seen this lack of hunt. I don't field trial, I can't imagine beating the brush to jump a rabbit for the dogs. If I saw someone doing that I would have to wonder about them.
I have had lots of dogs from many different bloodlines and very few of them would not go out and jump their own rabbit although some were much better at it than others. Maybe this is more of a training issue?
I have on the other hand seen lots of dogs that were too slow to be much good for hunting. Yes, you can kill rabbits with these "medium speed" dogs when conditions are perfect and if you don't fall asleep waiting for them to bring the rabbit around, but here in Minnesota these slower dogs are not much good in winter, jump dog or not.
I guess what I am trying to say is that I have seen a lot more dogs that couldn't run the rabbit after it was jumped than dogs that could not jump a rabbit. To me it realy is "all about the chase". But then, I'm just a rabbit hunter, I've never been to a field trial.

tommyg · Post by **tommyg** » Wed Nov 24, 2004 3:18 pm

Alot of times when you run a young hound in a pack without alot of solo time it will hurt its's hunt. I see this more and more,folks get to many Beagles and have to run them in a pack to get them all time in the field,it will ruin a young hound. Solo time for a young hound is very imporant to devlop it's hunt and search and it will learn to run a track with out being to competive. I realy belive that thats what is happening to alot of the hunt. There are Bloodlines that lack hunt but most will get it done if trained properly. Said it before and will say it again,Kingwood bread hounds have more hunt and stamina than anyother bloodline I've seen.love em!!!

lamarr · Post by **lamarr** » Wed Nov 24, 2004 4:02 pm

I agree 1000 percent tommy

mur the bear · Post by **mur the bear** » Wed Nov 24, 2004 4:46 pm

I think the use of starter pens and lack of solo time would contribute to the lack of hunt in individual hounds.I see so many newcomers on these forums looking for shortcuts to developing a good hound and hunting companion.There just are none.Time one on one is the best way to develop hunt in a young hound.
I can't say i have seen a beagle either that wouldn't hunt up his own hare.Like someone said some are btter than others and for the most part it is probably directly relative to how much opprotunity they got as a pup.This of course only applies if there is some thought put into the breeding.
I have never had the pleasure to see a Kingwood hound in action.I had some Northfield hounds years back.I see their names throughout the Kingwood pedigrees.If the Kingwood hunt and stamina is similar to theirs I bet they are something to behold.
I understand Al Winkler was the originater of the Kingwood line.I also understand he has passed on.Who now is breeding the Kingwood line?

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Wed Nov 24, 2004 9:01 pm

Wayne Gross in Kentucky has Kingwood's T-Rex,great reproducer. There is a hound here in WV that is directly out of Kingwood's Shorty,at 10 years old not many hounds can run with him. I breed Kingwood hounds. I have one male out of T-Rex and a gyp out of Branko's Ali Baba that is a good rabbit hound at 7 months and has a ways to go. I am careful what I outcross to,some bloodlines don't mix and I want to stay close to the original product. They also are very smart hounds that handle well. Try one you'll like them. I bought 2 pups from Tim Crowly in Kentucky the Ali Baba Kingwood cross,GREAT CROSS!!! He should do well in trials and as a rabbit hound,all kinds of Hunt and Jump.

swing · Post by **swing** » Wed Nov 24, 2004 9:36 pm

Will,
I thot about you today while I was gunning, we got to our spot this morning about 7 a.m., it was snowing like crazy wind was blowing 30 mph and wind chill was 22 degree's.
I looked at my buddy and said lets jump out and cut them loose and let them run while we set in the truck.
Cut them loose got back in the truck and they ran for 2 hours, before we got out and went with them.
Man that was nice, I like doing that to dogs every once in awhile, you find out who will hunt and who wont.
Id just crack the window open every so often just to make sure they were still running and boy that heater felt good. lol