Little Pack Trophies verse Money

[bigdog]

all i do is donate cause i loose a hell of alot more than i win. but the money means NOTHING! i do it for the fun and bu_ _s_ _t with friends so for now as long as i have a job and 6ft above ground i will stick with little pack... there was a local PKC club around my area but they went under.i never ever went cause they would only have 4 or 5 dogs.. and it just never excited me..jmo.

[stavemillbeagles]

I have been to probably 10 to 15 PKC events and haven't even seen an argument. Just my 2 cents worth.

we have been to 2 pkc hunts and both times there was arguments, had a guy jerk the score card out of the judges hand and change the score because he didn't agree with it. Nether of these hunts were for any kind of money to get excited about i would hate too see what would happen if it was for a decent amount of cash!
I don't understand how you don't give a dog credit for picking up a check.

I doubt i go to another pkc hunt!

[Parker7]

Cheaters will be cheaters no matter if you run for money or plastic. Your either honest or your not.

[Crow]

I have been to probably 10 to 15 PKC events and haven't even seen an argument. Just my 2 cents worth.

we have been to 2 pkc hunts and both times there was arguments, had a guy jerk the score card out of the judges hand and change the score because he didn't agree with it. Nether of these hunts were for any kind of money to get excited about i would hate too see what would happen if it was for a decent amount of cash!
I don't understand how you don't give a dog credit for picking up a check.

I doubt i go to another pkc hunt!

While I agree check work is an important part of beagling and I do wish there were a good way to give credit for good check work in PKC H&H format. The only issue I have is when you put emphasis on scoring checks then you tend to favor a dog that creates checks. I mean you can't score one if you don't have one. Let me ask this, which would you rather have, a pack that runs for an hour with 15 checks or a pack that runs an hour with 3 checks? I see a lot of "boasting" about the scores some casts are putting up in LP. For example I saw a post about a 3 dog pack that the winner scored 175 with 2nd having 150 and 3rd with 140 running a single rabbit for the entire hour. I wasn't there but the math indicates that 3rd got a strike jump with 4 checks, 2nd had 6 checks, and 1st with 7 checks. That's 17 checks in 60 minutes. Now if the judge waited the 15 seconds ARHA states in the rule book that's just over 4 minutes of "waiting" for a check to open assuming all were exactly 15 second losses. Then if the jump happened 1 minute after casting that would leave 55 minutes of actual running max but I think we would all agree it would probably be less. But at 55 minutes and 17 checks that averages to a 15 second loss every 3 minutes or so. In contrast if there was a pack of dogs that hammered a rabbit with only 3 or 4 checks in the same hunt they would've been blown out on the score card but which pack would you rather feed?

While I would agree with rewarding picking up a check, unfortunately, it seems there is just as much or more reward for a dog that creates a check to begin with. Either way, I'm not out to bash any style of dog or hunt, I feed mine so I run what I like to run. I don't expect anyone else to do any different. Main thing is just run 'em.

[rabbitearl]

yall I had a man this fall.First time in 25 years of doing trials He said two day before the trial.How much will it cost if I won.I was so shock.I wonder does anything like this happen to a lisc trial.I told him I want that kind of guy.i don t care how much he wanted to win.

[stavemillbeagles]

Crow, are you saying that because pkc doesn't award points for checks then the dogs that run in the pkc has fewer checks than other formats that award check points?

Judges that judge their own dogs and for a cash prize what could possibly go wrong?

[Steve Preston]

Unlike Lp 3 other cast members have a vote on a call in PKC if there is a disagreement.

[johns03272008]

Judges that judge their own dogs and for a cash prize what could possibly go wrong?

Chris i dont see how anything could go wrong!!!!

[stavemillbeagles]

Steve, from what everyone else says there is no disagreements in pkc lol

what is a iou and how much is the fee?

[warddog]

Well guys I have very limited experience in the competition beagle world but I would like to comment here. I do have a fair amount of exposure in the coon dog competitions though. I've been to hunts in many states spanning about 10 or 12 years and varying from local clubs to national events and world hunts in AKC, UKC, and PKC. I have saw about every scenario imaginable happen at these events. The worst incident I ever saw was at a UKC club hunt and it involved a 30 year old man knocking a 65 year old man out cold and a third party pulled a knife! No money involved there, just good ole plastic trophy. I have saw some arguments at PKC events but nothing that even remotely compares to the level of fighting and cheating that went on at hunts of other formats. When you start hunting for money or legitimate prizes you see a couple of things. 1. The level of professionalism in handlers, judges, and back-up handlers all increase. I believe this is due to having a greater motivation to compete at a high level and the increased consequences of not performing at a high level. Handlers and back-ups know the rule book cover to cover as do the judges. I have witnessed handlers leave mad because they got "cheated" when in reality they just were not familiar enough with the rules and the other participants were. 2. There is a lot more to lose if you go off the rails and end up banned from PKC. That means you don't have the option to hunt for that $5,000 added next month or the truck hunt or whatever major event you're qualified for. Folks seem to state their case and bite their tongue. They may walk away mad but the do walk away.

With all that said the money motivator has to be a decent amount of money. In the coon dog world it is, and has been for quite some time, but take notice. The beagle game is gaining ground. The only down fall in my mind is if it ever gets close to the level the coon dogs are then you will definitely be paying a higher price to purchase a quality dog. Prior to PKC you could buy a solid coon hound around these parts for $1,000 to $1,500 all day long. That won't get you a started pup anymore. Makes me wonder what PKC will be awarding beagle winners and what we'll be paying for a good running dog in a decade or two.

To stay on topic, IMO if LP wants to stay relevant they better start looking at something different. The more PKC puts into their beagle program the farther behind ARHA is going to fall. Not happened yet, but it's coming. Sorry for the long post.

I too have absolutley NO beagle trial experiance BUT have participated in these very same coon dog trials for way more than 10 or 12 years and have been out of it that long. I will agree and disagree with crow in that I have seen the best of friends come to blows over a simple CLUB hunt with calcutta money and dog of the year club points involved. The cheating went on in the UKC santioned hunts and it was even worse in some of the PKC hunts I went to. I will agree that in the PKC hunts the physical stuff was less BUT the reason wasn't because it was a better format or men were more PROFESSIONAL but rather because folks had a whole lot more invested in the fees to join PKC with registration and in getting banned from participation in the BIG money events and the truck.

I've witnessed cheating equally as well by slick handlers and judges in PKC as I have seen in a regular UKC nite hunt and even as mentioned in a plain ole simple club hunt for a few calcutta bucks. The ole not knowing the rules claim is used by many but knowing the rules and folks enforcing them are two distinctly different issues. I hunted with and have as neighbors a couple of the top coon hound folks that ever snapped a lead on a hound and in fact have Mr. Paul Gibson is still my friend and neighbor today.

Someone stated that whenever men compete there will be cheating and that is a fact, The cheating is bad enough for a trophy let alone when added cold hard cash is involved and money is always in the mix when one looks at the money difference in what a champion dog may sell for or bring via stud fees and or pup prices than that of a good ole non titled dog. The money involved when one champions out a dog is much greater than any ole trophy or local club calcutta BUT the biggest thing that is impossible to overcome is EGOS as that seems to override even the cash until that cash gets to the point that it got to in PKC.

I sit and read all the squabbles and differences of opinion on here and I just can imagine it being any different on the trial battle field. YES, there was a time when ALL those things including the ego motivated me but those are all long past gone to me. These days the little hounds are what I want to do when I want to do it and not my every awakening moment interest. I have learned that these little guys could care less about a trophy, cash or that championship and all they want to do is run them a rabbit without any ego or judgement cast upon them.

[Crow]

Crow, are you saying that because pkc doesn't award points for checks then the dogs that run in the pkc has fewer checks than other formats that award check points?

Judges that judge their own dogs and for a cash prize what could possibly go wrong?

As for the PKC question. No that's not what I meant to imply. Simply stated LP promotes fast dogs with no emphasis on line control or check work. Please don't confuse the check work comment with not rewarding checks. That is not what I mean but I don't see how awarding points to a dog that "works out a check" 30 yards from the point of loss when it never even slowed down in the actual check area is promoting check work. I feel that format or more accurately that scoring system promotes, and lends to the development, of a "race horse" style. Nothing wrong with a race horse, just not my preference.

As for the hunting judges portion, 3 words. . .

MAJORITY CAST VOTE

Like I said before. Run what you like, that's what everyone tries to do.

[Crow]

Well guys I have very limited experience in the competition beagle world but I would like to comment here. I do have a fair amount of exposure in the coon dog competitions though. I've been to hunts in many states spanning about 10 or 12 years and varying from local clubs to national events and world hunts in AKC, UKC, and PKC. I have saw about every scenario imaginable happen at these events. The worst incident I ever saw was at a UKC club hunt and it involved a 30 year old man knocking a 65 year old man out cold and a third party pulled a knife! No money involved there, just good ole plastic trophy. I have saw some arguments at PKC events but nothing that even remotely compares to the level of fighting and cheating that went on at hunts of other formats. When you start hunting for money or legitimate prizes you see a couple of things. 1. The level of professionalism in handlers, judges, and back-up handlers all increase. I believe this is due to having a greater motivation to compete at a high level and the increased consequences of not performing at a high level. Handlers and back-ups know the rule book cover to cover as do the judges. I have witnessed handlers leave mad because they got "cheated" when in reality they just were not familiar enough with the rules and the other participants were. 2. There is a lot more to lose if you go off the rails and end up banned from PKC. That means you don't have the option to hunt for that $5,000 added next month or the truck hunt or whatever major event you're qualified for. Folks seem to state their case and bite their tongue. They may walk away mad but the do walk away.

With all that said the money motivator has to be a decent amount of money. In the coon dog world it is, and has been for quite some time, but take notice. The beagle game is gaining ground. The only down fall in my mind is if it ever gets close to the level the coon dogs are then you will definitely be paying a higher price to purchase a quality dog. Prior to PKC you could buy a solid coon hound around these parts for $1,000 to $1,500 all day long. That won't get you a started pup anymore. Makes me wonder what PKC will be awarding beagle winners and what we'll be paying for a good running dog in a decade or two.

To stay on topic, IMO if LP wants to stay relevant they better start looking at something different. The more PKC puts into their beagle program the farther behind ARHA is going to fall. Not happened yet, but it's coming. Sorry for the long post.

I too have absolutley NO beagle trial experiance BUT have participated in these very same coon dog trials for way more than 10 or 12 years and have been out of it that long. I will agree and disagree with crow in that I have seen the best of friends come to blows over a simple CLUB hunt with calcutta money and dog of the year club points involved. The cheating went on in the UKC santioned hunts and it was even worse in some of the PKC hunts I went to. I will agree that in the PKC hunts the physical stuff was less BUT the reason wasn't because it was a better format or men were more PROFESSIONAL but rather because folks had a whole lot more invested in the fees to join PKC with registration and in getting banned from participation in the BIG money events and the truck. I've witnessed cheating equally as well by slick handlers and judges in PKC as I have seen in a regular UKC nite hunt and even as mentioned in a plain ole simple club hunt for a few calcutta bucks. The ole not knowing the rules claim is used by many but knowing the rules and folks enforcing them are two distinctly different issues. I hunted with and have as neighbors a couple of the top coon hound folks that ever snapped a lead on a hound and in fact have Mr. Paul Gibson is still my friend and neighbor today. Someone stated that whenever men compete there will be cheating and that is a fact, The cheating is bad enough for a trophy let alone when added cold hard cash is involved and money is always in the mix when one looks at the money difference in what a champion dog may sell for or bring via stud fees and or pup prices than that of a good ole non titled dog. The money involved when one champions out a dog is much greater than any ole trophy or local club calcutta BUT the biggest thing that is impossible to overcome is EGOS as that seems to override even the cash until that cash gets to the point that it got to in PKC. I sit and read all the squabbles and differences of opinion on here and I just can imagine it being any different on the trial battle field. YES, there was a time when ALL those things including the ego motivated me but those are all long past gone to me. These days the little hounds are what I want to do when I want to do it and not my every awakening moment interest. I have learned that these little guys could care less about a trophy, cash or that championship and all they want to do is run them a rabbit without any ego or judgement cast upon them.

Nicely put.

[foxxy]

Crow, are you saying that because pkc doesn't award points for checks then the dogs that run in the pkc has fewer checks than other formats that award check points?

Judges that judge their own dogs and for a cash prize what could possibly go wrong?

i ran in some pkc won money and lost not my cup of tea
seen dogs that made my lp bitch look really clean and she is rough as a cob.

[swing]

Stavemill, was the guy reported that jerked the scorecard out of the judges hand?

[Crow]

Crow, are you saying that because pkc doesn't award points for checks then the dogs that run in the pkc has fewer checks than other formats that award check points?

Judges that judge their own dogs and for a cash prize what could possibly go wrong?

i ran in some pkc won money and lost not my cup of tea
seen dogs that made my lp bitch look really clean and she is rough as a cob.

Now I don't doubt that either. Keep in mind PKC doesn't reward line control or close check work either. PKC h&h is not the answer but with the money that's gonna end up being given to the winners of major events in the future I believe it's gonna be the dominant format before to much longer.