what format do u all like the best?????? (fairest)???
Moderators: Pike Ridge Beagles, Aaron Bartlett
-
TurnLeftBeagles
- Posts: 334
- Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2004 6:16 pm
- Location: S.W. PA
- Contact:
If you haul a good jump dog around that can run a rabbit, you should have fun in whatever format you are successful in!
Adam Deist
http://www.turnleftbeagles.com
H.o.F. hound Stump's KY Mtn. Chance @ stud
Ugly white dogs that chase rabbits and an ugly white dog that trees coons
http://www.turnleftbeagles.com
H.o.F. hound Stump's KY Mtn. Chance @ stud
Ugly white dogs that chase rabbits and an ugly white dog that trees coons
This is what never made sense to me. If a dog were able to trail the rabbit with no breakdowns then it was never a check. To me, a check situation is when all dogs in the pack have broken down and the line is no longer being advanced.If the judge see's a rabbit make a 90 degree turn and one of the dogs are running a good enough line to make that turn and not break down then he get's scored for the check.
Bev point well taken but in my opinion a lot of dogs would over run that turn. So I think if a dog holds good enough line he or she should get the check. Example you are at a trial, there are 20 people standing in the road listening to the dogs run. The rabbit comes to the edge of the road see all the people and turns and goes back in. Theres a good chance that the dogs are going to run to the middle of the road and break down. But if one of the dogs turns on that line and does'nt break down I think it is a job well done and he should be rewarded 
.
.
I have to agree with Bev on the what a check is. A dog making a 90 degree turn and not over running is simply exhibiting good line control. A dog that makes a 90 degree turn without over running it while the rest of the pack does is exhibiting superior line control. As a judge I note that dogs line control, I look to see if the dog can repeatedly make those kind of turns, and I give credit accordingly. A check is a situation where the rabbit pulls a maneuver or plays a trick such as a double, V back, stopping and making a giant leap to one side or something of that nature to put a break in the line and hinder forward progress. If the entire pack over runs a 90 degree turn and there is a break down I consider it a dog check and give score to the dog smart enough to come back and pick it up. It was not a trick the rabbit played but simply the dogs screwing up.
-
Alabama John
- Posts: 2116
- Joined: Sat Jul 27, 2002 5:56 pm
- Location: Pinson, Alabama
Two things we can know about a dog that consistently comes to a 90 degree turn and doesn't overrun. One, it is accurate and has a good nose and two, it is SLOOOOOW!
I like fast dogs so around here, Little Pack is preferred, and some PP pack dogs.
At my age, I can't be running myself in a straight line and turn 90 degrees with putting on brakes and overrunning some.
I like fast dogs so around here, Little Pack is preferred, and some PP pack dogs.
At my age, I can't be running myself in a straight line and turn 90 degrees with putting on brakes and overrunning some.
-
Buckeye Bob
- Posts: 489
- Joined: Sun Sep 07, 2003 10:01 pm
- Location: Ohio
Yeah Scott,I call that a check but after judging LP I am grateful for the 15 second rule to allow me to catch up and score! I like Little Pack format but still wish they had to certify before getting to be champion.AKC sounds like a good idea but until they pick up a dog for running offgame I will never run in one.I have not tried UKC but hope to this year to see if my impression that they are promoting speed and speed only is true.Progressive Pack sounds great on paper until you look at how they punish a dog that is running the rabbit like he is intent on catching it.
-
Alabama John
- Posts: 2116
- Joined: Sat Jul 27, 2002 5:56 pm
- Location: Pinson, Alabama
Good question Ky and comment Incahoots
Darrin
This has to get some of our new folks up!
The 15 second rule is what I don't like about Little Pack.
I have run with fast dogs many days and run to catch and never have a breakdown of 15 seconds the whole time.
Like any rodeo person knows, 8 seconds can be long, long, time, much less 15.
I still say running fast to catch you will have less checks because there will be less tricks pulled by a rabbit.
My first trial I took a dog that led the front the whole time, about an hour and dominated the cast, but didn't have any checks for 15 seconds and so he didn't get any points.
Folks said he sure could run a rabbit, but wasn't doing good and I thought he was winning for sure.
What is a check varies with different folks. I call it a check if the dogs lose the rabbit and have to spread out and find the rabbit or line again regardless of how long it takes, 5 seconds or one minute.
Darrin
This has to get some of our new folks up!
The 15 second rule is what I don't like about Little Pack.
I have run with fast dogs many days and run to catch and never have a breakdown of 15 seconds the whole time.
Like any rodeo person knows, 8 seconds can be long, long, time, much less 15.
I still say running fast to catch you will have less checks because there will be less tricks pulled by a rabbit.
My first trial I took a dog that led the front the whole time, about an hour and dominated the cast, but didn't have any checks for 15 seconds and so he didn't get any points.
Folks said he sure could run a rabbit, but wasn't doing good and I thought he was winning for sure.
What is a check varies with different folks. I call it a check if the dogs lose the rabbit and have to spread out and find the rabbit or line again regardless of how long it takes, 5 seconds or one minute.
-
Jamie Rice
- Posts: 1173
- Joined: Sat Jul 27, 2002 1:22 pm
- Location: Lexington, KY
- Contact:
I guess when it comes to check I'll agree with Alabama John's comment. I see it as any break or loss of the rabbit, whether it be 5 sec., 15 sec, 1 minute, or longer. Personally I can't see how any format or registry can put a time on what is and what isn't a check. Lord knows the dogs don't have a clock in their heads saying, "well I'm not going to get this score if I don't wait a tad longer to claim." That's crazy. Perhaps as I've heard some folks state, it was done so in order to give judges some time to catch up to score the hounds. Anyhow to me if I've got a hound in the pack I'm judging, that is repeatedly making that 45, 60, 90, or whatever degree turn it may be, while the rest can't that hound is going to be one of my top hounds. I could care less whether it be slow, medium, or fast. I would like for it to be on the front a time or two to see if that hound can control it better than the one he/she is turning it on. However the turning hound doesn't have to be on the front all the time, unlike what some judges seem to think. And by gosh you better bet your billfold, I'm going to score the heck out of the hound that's turning. To me that hound is not only showing line control, intent to catch, but brains as well to follow the line instead of following the dogs.
Indeed dogs are going to over run it some because the rabbit it playing tricks, etc., but so many more are over running it because they're running the front runner more than they're running the line. It's hard for me to believe that every single hound in that pack is running scent, because if so that hound would be turning with the scent. If you've got a hound turning it from behind on the front running hounds, then that front runner is disrupting the run more than he's contributing. Very, very few dogs are going to turn it on a dime, but he/she should have the brains to slow down and shut it's mouth when it's ran out of scent. And it darn well shouldn't be swinging to the next ridge to claim the check, much less skirting brush or the line to obtain the front.
As for what's best... I don't look at one format any better than the other. Indeed there's one I prefer over others, but with that said I can find just as much fault in the one I prefer as I do in the ones that I prefer less. I've always stated if each borrowed a rule or two from one another they'd improve themselves greatly. However hell will freeze over first, because quite frankly it's human nature and more so pride for one to not admit the other has something that's better. If so few of us can do so with our dogs(the biggest reason for so many people hollering buddy judging), how are we to expect it to ever happen on a grander scale in the registry/format itself. If progressive pack would get rid of the idealogy just because it's faster it's wrong and letting dogs get by with so much mouth to me it would be closer to perfection. I personally love the ideal that a hound must certify or prove it can run and jump it's own rabbit before it can be a champion. However as noted before the fact some judges will let dogs babble, potter, and basically bark all over the place I will not run it anymore. As for little pack, I can't agree with scoring a hound that's getting the check first if he/she is swinging to the next ridge to get it. And no I'm not saying every dog in little pack does, but when the rules permit such then you're going to see more than do than don't. The one's claiming in closest to the point of loss and first is the ones that should be getting scored. And that's not only in Little Pack, but in any format.
As for AKC not picking up a dog for running off game. There's a rule in there to demerit a hound for running deer, but no other offgame. To me offgame is offgame. They're supposed to be rabbitdawgs, not sometimes squirrel, sometimes quail, sometimes pig(that's happenned), sometimes etc. No where whatsoever is there any rule stating if it comes or doesn't come back from deer in 15 or 20 minutes it's ok or not ok. The only mention of time in the SPO rulebook that I've ever been able to find in the numerous times I've read it is that a hound has five minutes to get with the pack if game(rabbit) is being pursue by the rest of the pack.
On a different note, I've heard several fellow judges say they give the pack a few minutes to settle down. To me that's wrong. I realize a dog is going to pee and crap when they first come out of the box, but after it's emptied out the hound should have it's head and a$$ together and be hunting. It don't take 10, 15, or 20 minutes for a dog to crap. At the most five or less and it should be hunting. Sarcastic as it may sound, if it takes 20 minutes for a hound to take a dump and pee then perhaps the owner should take it to the vet instead of a field trial. Furthermore if it takes 10 to 20 for he/she to begin hunting, then it shouldn't be brought to the trial in the first place.
Indeed dogs are going to over run it some because the rabbit it playing tricks, etc., but so many more are over running it because they're running the front runner more than they're running the line. It's hard for me to believe that every single hound in that pack is running scent, because if so that hound would be turning with the scent. If you've got a hound turning it from behind on the front running hounds, then that front runner is disrupting the run more than he's contributing. Very, very few dogs are going to turn it on a dime, but he/she should have the brains to slow down and shut it's mouth when it's ran out of scent. And it darn well shouldn't be swinging to the next ridge to claim the check, much less skirting brush or the line to obtain the front.
As for what's best... I don't look at one format any better than the other. Indeed there's one I prefer over others, but with that said I can find just as much fault in the one I prefer as I do in the ones that I prefer less. I've always stated if each borrowed a rule or two from one another they'd improve themselves greatly. However hell will freeze over first, because quite frankly it's human nature and more so pride for one to not admit the other has something that's better. If so few of us can do so with our dogs(the biggest reason for so many people hollering buddy judging), how are we to expect it to ever happen on a grander scale in the registry/format itself. If progressive pack would get rid of the idealogy just because it's faster it's wrong and letting dogs get by with so much mouth to me it would be closer to perfection. I personally love the ideal that a hound must certify or prove it can run and jump it's own rabbit before it can be a champion. However as noted before the fact some judges will let dogs babble, potter, and basically bark all over the place I will not run it anymore. As for little pack, I can't agree with scoring a hound that's getting the check first if he/she is swinging to the next ridge to get it. And no I'm not saying every dog in little pack does, but when the rules permit such then you're going to see more than do than don't. The one's claiming in closest to the point of loss and first is the ones that should be getting scored. And that's not only in Little Pack, but in any format.
As for AKC not picking up a dog for running off game. There's a rule in there to demerit a hound for running deer, but no other offgame. To me offgame is offgame. They're supposed to be rabbitdawgs, not sometimes squirrel, sometimes quail, sometimes pig(that's happenned), sometimes etc. No where whatsoever is there any rule stating if it comes or doesn't come back from deer in 15 or 20 minutes it's ok or not ok. The only mention of time in the SPO rulebook that I've ever been able to find in the numerous times I've read it is that a hound has five minutes to get with the pack if game(rabbit) is being pursue by the rest of the pack.
On a different note, I've heard several fellow judges say they give the pack a few minutes to settle down. To me that's wrong. I realize a dog is going to pee and crap when they first come out of the box, but after it's emptied out the hound should have it's head and a$$ together and be hunting. It don't take 10, 15, or 20 minutes for a dog to crap. At the most five or less and it should be hunting. Sarcastic as it may sound, if it takes 20 minutes for a hound to take a dump and pee then perhaps the owner should take it to the vet instead of a field trial. Furthermore if it takes 10 to 20 for he/she to begin hunting, then it shouldn't be brought to the trial in the first place.
Last edited by Jamie Rice on Sun Jan 16, 2005 3:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Jamie D. Rice
FUZZ'S BEAGLES
"I can do all things through Christ which strengthen me." - Philippians 4:13 KJV
FUZZ'S BEAGLES
"I can do all things through Christ which strengthen me." - Philippians 4:13 KJV
Buck eye Bob. I understand what you are saying, but fact is it does'nt matter if the break down is 5 seconds or 30. You are either there to score the check or you are not. So why have that rule? the 15 second rule is not going to make you get there quicker. I have been to some little Pack and PKC hunts (10 second rule) and have seen a lot of checks that could have been scored under 15 seconds or 10 seconds. Sure not all of them can, but like I said if you're there score it if you not then you're not.
Incahoots, You say that is not a check because it is'nt a major bobble but there are a lot of fast dogs out there that would over run it much farther and made it a major bobble and get scored for that check. I'm not saying there are'nt some fast dogs out there that run a good line because I'm sure there are. Take an upper medium fast dog will call #1 that runs a good line and a fast dog will call#2 that over runs and swings-put them together in a Little Pack hunt let's say the #2 fast dog over runs quite a bit on the 1st check and dog #1 gets the check in 4 or 5 seconds he should'nt get scored because that's not a check. But if you take the med fast dog out of the race and put to really fast dogs together and they both over ran it quite a bit and swang out or hooke till they got that check it could very well be a major bobble and take 15 seconds. Don't get me wrong I like to watch a good race as much as any body but a break down is a break down in my book. 2 sec 5 secs 45 secs. When I'm hunting and my dogs are 1/4 mile away circling the rabbitt and I don't here them for 4 or 5 seconds and then they fire back in I'm pretty sure they just had a check. Just my opinion.
Alabama John- I'm with ya!! There are a lot of different style dogs and a lot of good dogs in every style. I like a dog to run the line as fast as he can but I also want him to slam the brakes on and do what he has to do to find the rabbit at the point of loss and I want him to do so as quick as possible. I've seen some really nice Little Pack dogs that could pound a rabbit, but I've also seen some Progressive pack dogs spin on a dime and leave with the line like somebody shotem in the rear with rock salt rock
Incahoots, You say that is not a check because it is'nt a major bobble but there are a lot of fast dogs out there that would over run it much farther and made it a major bobble and get scored for that check. I'm not saying there are'nt some fast dogs out there that run a good line because I'm sure there are. Take an upper medium fast dog will call #1 that runs a good line and a fast dog will call#2 that over runs and swings-put them together in a Little Pack hunt let's say the #2 fast dog over runs quite a bit on the 1st check and dog #1 gets the check in 4 or 5 seconds he should'nt get scored because that's not a check. But if you take the med fast dog out of the race and put to really fast dogs together and they both over ran it quite a bit and swang out or hooke till they got that check it could very well be a major bobble and take 15 seconds. Don't get me wrong I like to watch a good race as much as any body but a break down is a break down in my book. 2 sec 5 secs 45 secs. When I'm hunting and my dogs are 1/4 mile away circling the rabbitt and I don't here them for 4 or 5 seconds and then they fire back in I'm pretty sure they just had a check. Just my opinion.
Alabama John- I'm with ya!! There are a lot of different style dogs and a lot of good dogs in every style. I like a dog to run the line as fast as he can but I also want him to slam the brakes on and do what he has to do to find the rabbit at the point of loss and I want him to do so as quick as possible. I've seen some really nice Little Pack dogs that could pound a rabbit, but I've also seen some Progressive pack dogs spin on a dime and leave with the line like somebody shotem in the rear with rock salt rock
-
CHAD_PLUNKETT
- Posts: 318
- Joined: Thu May 29, 2003 1:06 am
- Location: Dawson Springs, KY