Hot nosed / Cold nosed
Moderators: Pike Ridge Beagles, Aaron Bartlett
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Ed
Hot nosed/cold nosed
OK, here we go. I hunt the same conditions that Pete does. I've seen times when I wished I had a cold nosed dog just to get something happening. At least it would wake the hare up. Right after a storm when they aren't moving, this cold nosed dog will have something happening, even if we don't like it. If I had the choice, I guess I'd like the hot nosed dog but it HAS to have a lot of wanna. See what I mean? Wants to get a hare up. HUNTS!! To heck with hot or cold nosed, get out there and HUNT. It's nose will do the job once the hare is up. But the hound most HUNT. If it opens while it's doing this, that's OK with me. If I were in a trial, well that's different. But we're hunting now, not trialing. Like it or not, there has to be a difference.
Chris: Since you posted for NYhillbilly I suppose you agree with his statement on pack work. I'm gonna respond to that statement for you because much of it is worng for hunting but I would guess it would depend on what type of trial you like if it would fit there. Sometimes there is old scent all over the place in the morning after a night of rabbits feeding and I reckon hounds smell a bit here and a bit there a lot of times If they open on scent they cannot move and call their packmates to them they have just called their packmates away from their work for no useful reason. They have interupted the work of the entire pack for a line they cannot move. Now maybe the rabbit is nearby and will be found and maybe it is not why disrupt the searching of an entire pack for a maybe when if the hound kept silent until he knew for sure one way or the other the rest of the pack could continue their search uninterupted.
In a hunting pack each individual MUST be able to do it all on their own. If a hound cannot run his rabbit solo he will be incapable of contributeing much to the pack. The fighting for the front thing being disruptive depends on how the hound is fighting to get there. Certainly if he's fighting with foot then it's disruptive but if he's fighting for the front by dedicateing himself to the line and trying his best to pursue the rabbit and trying to gain the lead honestly through sound hound work then there will be no disruption of the pack. That is if the hound runs the rabbit and applies himself to the scnet that is available to him and works independanty and honestly and seeks to gain the lead through positive actions instead of of jealously trying to gain the lead through racing the pack will only beneifit through his efforts. If all of the pack members are capable of running their own rabbit and all the pack members apply themselves in that way then the pack will be successful. I realize this type of hound work may not work in some field trials where the winner will be the first hound across the feed strip regardless of how he gained the lead but for hunting it is what is required. One more thing; if the hound is not capable of doing it all solo how is he going to be able to lead a pack? The lead hound is in effect running the rabbit solo isn't he?
Pete: your comparing a hound who obviously lack nose to those caulls. Certanly a hound can be fault free but lacks the nose required to run in all conditions. That's a cull too isn't it? The mere lack of faulty actions doesn't make the hound a good one. He must also be endowed with the proper tools to perform as desired. If the hound shows no faulty action but lacks sufficiant nose to do the job he's not serviceable is he? The proof that the hounds lacked nose was right before you when some hounds could run and some could not. I reckon there are a lot of breeders who are glad you fellas are making this argument for them. They will have a ready place to sell their culls. Strength of nose doesn not by itself cause hounds to cold trail nor does lack of fault itself lead to merit. The mere fact that a hound cold trails dosen't mean they have a more powerful nose nor does the fact that a hound does not cold trail mean they have a less powerful nose. In fact the hound with a powerful nose but who also does not cold trail may have a more refined nose because he is capable of determinig age of the scent and the cold trailer cannot. You boys keep compareing your cold trailers to those other hounds who lack nose and we breeders will have a ready place to sell our culls.
In a hunting pack each individual MUST be able to do it all on their own. If a hound cannot run his rabbit solo he will be incapable of contributeing much to the pack. The fighting for the front thing being disruptive depends on how the hound is fighting to get there. Certainly if he's fighting with foot then it's disruptive but if he's fighting for the front by dedicateing himself to the line and trying his best to pursue the rabbit and trying to gain the lead honestly through sound hound work then there will be no disruption of the pack. That is if the hound runs the rabbit and applies himself to the scnet that is available to him and works independanty and honestly and seeks to gain the lead through positive actions instead of of jealously trying to gain the lead through racing the pack will only beneifit through his efforts. If all of the pack members are capable of running their own rabbit and all the pack members apply themselves in that way then the pack will be successful. I realize this type of hound work may not work in some field trials where the winner will be the first hound across the feed strip regardless of how he gained the lead but for hunting it is what is required. One more thing; if the hound is not capable of doing it all solo how is he going to be able to lead a pack? The lead hound is in effect running the rabbit solo isn't he?
Pete: your comparing a hound who obviously lack nose to those caulls. Certanly a hound can be fault free but lacks the nose required to run in all conditions. That's a cull too isn't it? The mere lack of faulty actions doesn't make the hound a good one. He must also be endowed with the proper tools to perform as desired. If the hound shows no faulty action but lacks sufficiant nose to do the job he's not serviceable is he? The proof that the hounds lacked nose was right before you when some hounds could run and some could not. I reckon there are a lot of breeders who are glad you fellas are making this argument for them. They will have a ready place to sell their culls. Strength of nose doesn not by itself cause hounds to cold trail nor does lack of fault itself lead to merit. The mere fact that a hound cold trails dosen't mean they have a more powerful nose nor does the fact that a hound does not cold trail mean they have a less powerful nose. In fact the hound with a powerful nose but who also does not cold trail may have a more refined nose because he is capable of determinig age of the scent and the cold trailer cannot. You boys keep compareing your cold trailers to those other hounds who lack nose and we breeders will have a ready place to sell our culls.
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New York Hillbilly
- Posts: 687
- Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2002 11:54 pm
- Location: Soldotna, Alaska
I have to get to work so this has to be quick. OH my goodness!!!!!! Here we have Chris, Pete , Guests, Ed and dare I say myself who all run in the same type of conditions ie. snow, cold, sleet, wind etc. Some of us not only hunt constantly but some even are guiding others on hunts, and as it sounds to me with other peoples hounds on occassion which gives you something to compare to. Yet despite our common expeiences and shared thoughts on hounds we are to believe "WE" are the ones are all wet. 
Joe, you and I will have to agree to disagree I guess. And while you may not subscribe to my ideas on hounds or the way they should hunt pease remember that only makes me wrong in your eyes.
From the posts I have seen after mine I am led to believe that there are many more who agree. And judging from what I have been able to learn about these fellas that share my expeiences I feel I am in the company of some true "hare hunters". These guys are not very wordy but what they say rings true to me. I like things straight up and less complicated. When people get to deep for me I think back to a saying I once heard and it still makes me laugh. "If you can't dazzle em with brilliance baffle em with BS" Have a good day guys I have to get to work.
Peace,
NYH..the cull buyer....
Joe, you and I will have to agree to disagree I guess. And while you may not subscribe to my ideas on hounds or the way they should hunt pease remember that only makes me wrong in your eyes.From the posts I have seen after mine I am led to believe that there are many more who agree. And judging from what I have been able to learn about these fellas that share my expeiences I feel I am in the company of some true "hare hunters". These guys are not very wordy but what they say rings true to me. I like things straight up and less complicated. When people get to deep for me I think back to a saying I once heard and it still makes me laugh. "If you can't dazzle em with brilliance baffle em with BS"
Have a good day guys I have to get to work.Peace,
NYH..the cull buyer....
When my life on earth is ended....this is all I'm gonna say...Lord I've been a hard working pilgrim on the way!
Joe, please explain: "If the hound shows no faulty action but lacks sufficiant nose to do the job he's not serviceable is he? "
How can a hound that can't run a rabbit be showing no faulty action? I agree with your point but not your definitions. To me a hound that consistently brings rabbits back to the gun is not faulty, one that can't run most days is faulty.
How can a hound that can't run a rabbit be showing no faulty action? I agree with your point but not your definitions. To me a hound that consistently brings rabbits back to the gun is not faulty, one that can't run most days is faulty.
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Robert W. Mccoy Jr
- Posts: 420
- Joined: Thu Feb 06, 2003 1:57 pm
- Location: Canton Michigan
I will not get into it about the cold/Hot noise debate.
I run what I like and you guy's do the same.
I hunt more than anything else so if one dog is constantly barking and non producing, or never baking you can bet I won't be feeding him in my kennel too long.
I will say something about a hound hunting with you..
I can tell you one thing for sure with out a doubt my finished dog's hunt with me.
I pay close attention to this.
I cannot stand hunting with guy's who don't make there hound handle.
This weekend we spent more time looking for a guy's dog than we did rabbit's.
This drives me nut's.
If your into the sport and are commited to running hound you should be commited to breking your dog's if nesseccary. To hunt with you as a pack.
By the time my dog's are one year old they know if they go too long with out seeing me they better start looking real fast.
I run what I like and you guy's do the same.
I hunt more than anything else so if one dog is constantly barking and non producing, or never baking you can bet I won't be feeding him in my kennel too long.
I will say something about a hound hunting with you..
I can tell you one thing for sure with out a doubt my finished dog's hunt with me.
I pay close attention to this.
I cannot stand hunting with guy's who don't make there hound handle.
This weekend we spent more time looking for a guy's dog than we did rabbit's.
This drives me nut's.
If your into the sport and are commited to running hound you should be commited to breking your dog's if nesseccary. To hunt with you as a pack.
By the time my dog's are one year old they know if they go too long with out seeing me they better start looking real fast.
We all know where each other stands. Anyone actually wearing out pairs of boots chasing these bunnies knows the deal. Joe, I've gotta' ask you... how many times in the last 12 months have you gone out and killed a rabbit after one of those non-faulty runs? Honestly. The way you talk, so matter-of-factly, you've witnessed all this great hound work from hounds that very rarely make a mistake, and have very limited faults. There are too many guys that I know wear out boots and have a passion for rabbit hunting, that agree with me. How can we all be so wrong in being diametrically opposed to what you're saying? NYH has repeatedly hit the nail on the head. Do you have a passion for rabbit hunting, or a passion for debating Beagles?
I've been asking for months to see dogs that fit all of these definitions that Joe refers to. Guess what? I've seen 2 good dogs, and a bunch of average dogs, and have been avoided like the plague by many. What that tells me is that cuckapoo (as my son calls it) is more rampant than honesty, and there are a huge amount of average dogs out there that are only really about 2/3 (or less) worthy of taking to the woods. When you find one that's more than 2/3 worthy, you've got a keeper -- regardless of what anyone preaching definitions tells you. Yes, that's right, even if it commits half of Joe's faulty 'rulebook of doom' mistakes, it's still a keeper if you can have fun gunning over it, and it can get the job done when other dogs can't -- because there are not many really good dogs out there.
I feel sorry for the beginning Beaglers who are taking some of this to heart. Don't get the wrong impression of reality by reading these boards. Go wear out a few pairs of boots and you too will know what it takes to kill rabbits/hare. Come to your own conclusion on what your perfect dog is.
I've been asking for months to see dogs that fit all of these definitions that Joe refers to. Guess what? I've seen 2 good dogs, and a bunch of average dogs, and have been avoided like the plague by many. What that tells me is that cuckapoo (as my son calls it) is more rampant than honesty, and there are a huge amount of average dogs out there that are only really about 2/3 (or less) worthy of taking to the woods. When you find one that's more than 2/3 worthy, you've got a keeper -- regardless of what anyone preaching definitions tells you. Yes, that's right, even if it commits half of Joe's faulty 'rulebook of doom' mistakes, it's still a keeper if you can have fun gunning over it, and it can get the job done when other dogs can't -- because there are not many really good dogs out there.
I feel sorry for the beginning Beaglers who are taking some of this to heart. Don't get the wrong impression of reality by reading these boards. Go wear out a few pairs of boots and you too will know what it takes to kill rabbits/hare. Come to your own conclusion on what your perfect dog is.
Chris
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NYHillBilly: There are many other beaglers who beleive just as I do. IN fact there have been beaglers who beleive just as I do for a long, long time. IN fact you can go back and read some writtings of some of the beaglers that agree with with my idea of hound work. L.M. (Yellow Creek) Watson, Lew Madden and Tom Dornin are three such beaglers who have written their thoughts on hound work so you can find and read their thoughts for yourself.
There is nothing overly complicated in all of this; al one need do is apply common sense and the answers to all questions beagling become clear.
TomMN: Any hound who exhibits a faulty hound action on a more or less regular bases is in fact faulty. The degree of his fault will determine whether or not the hound is serviceable. Certainly there are many hounds who are just a bit faulty and yet the fault is not severe enough to render them unserviceable. That does not change the fact that they would be better hounds if they never exhibited that faulty behavior. The hound that can't run most days is faultyer still.
Robert: You are speaking of tractability and that is a trait hounds must be born with.
Chris: Surpising as it may sound I have been bleesed with wittnessing hounds who can do it all and who have made vary few mistakes and were not slow. Slow being a fault I will not tolerate. We are in agreement that even if a hound exhibits a faulty hound action he may still be serviceable if he is capable of accounting for the majority of his game. Ever think of why there are not as many good hounds out there as you would like? One reason is too many would breed together two hounds who exhibit the same major fault.
There is nothing overly complicated in all of this; al one need do is apply common sense and the answers to all questions beagling become clear.
TomMN: Any hound who exhibits a faulty hound action on a more or less regular bases is in fact faulty. The degree of his fault will determine whether or not the hound is serviceable. Certainly there are many hounds who are just a bit faulty and yet the fault is not severe enough to render them unserviceable. That does not change the fact that they would be better hounds if they never exhibited that faulty behavior. The hound that can't run most days is faultyer still.
Robert: You are speaking of tractability and that is a trait hounds must be born with.
Chris: Surpising as it may sound I have been bleesed with wittnessing hounds who can do it all and who have made vary few mistakes and were not slow. Slow being a fault I will not tolerate. We are in agreement that even if a hound exhibits a faulty hound action he may still be serviceable if he is capable of accounting for the majority of his game. Ever think of why there are not as many good hounds out there as you would like? One reason is too many would breed together two hounds who exhibit the same major fault.
JOE: Seems to me you know alot about beagles and have been around the beagling world a long time.?Aparently you have studied them a great deal.And iguess you have culled a lot of dogs for being faulty. AND i see you say aperson should'nt breed out of a faulty dog, IT should be pretty much fault free right. Joe do you have alot of good breeders in your kennel. I was talking to some of my beagling buddies and we are all thinking about getting rid of the dogs we have now and placeing a order with you for some dogs. And we would be very interested in one of your books; [ THE LIFE AND LEGACY of JOE WEST].The RIGHT WAY..THE WRONG WAY,,THE JOE WEST WAY.
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snowshoehareguide
- Posts: 393
- Joined: Thu Nov 14, 2002 7:52 pm
- Location: brownington vermont
joe
joe i strongly disagree with you about dogs opening on any track they can move. i want them too i prefer them too. a very lot of your stuff i agree with. i admire your stick. it sounds like some of these guys are picking on you . you guys read every word joe says it is great stuff. he dont like a cold trailing dog. ok i can live with that as long as they can run most the time im happy with any dog. i do like his goal of steady running . this sunday it was snowing and warm and dogs ran almost without a check . this is my idea of an ideal hound. it was a case of faulty hounds running perfect, no old tracks cause snow covering them up. they have to be pretty stupid to make a loss with only one track in front of them. still a hare may go places they cant follow and this is the only reason for a loss in these conditions. i have seen a few hounds run like this. ive owned one beagle who ran like this alot. ive seen a few foxhounds. these dogs had average or above speed. to hear them run would make the hair stand up on my neck. it still does just thinking about it and these dogs have been dead a long time. nothing wrong with trying for an ideal hound. my ideal hound will run steady all the time and be as close to the hare as he can get. runs to catch him walks when he has too. i will have a lot that are less than ideal . theres a terrible thing called reality. not everybodies ideal hound willbe the same. joe says if too much speed the rabbits seek a hole. i run just hare ive seen a couple go in holes in thirty years. if dogs is too fast for conditionthey push them out of country sometimes. also i notice the more mouth on a track the more likely the hare is to circle in a smaller area. i dont know the reason i just know it happens. and i ve noticed this running cat,fox and coyote as wellas hare. thats a big reason i like a more mouthy dog that some of you dont. the other reason is if dogs bark alot the more likely i can hear them . if a dog barks off and on i might miss it around here can here a snowmobile about all the time. ive hunted someplace where seems like i could hear an airplane truck or train somewhere. so the more the dog barks the better chance i can hear him and know where hes going. mouthy is a different thing than cold nose but i think related. anyways you guy keep up the good work pete
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Robert W. Mccoy Jr
- Posts: 420
- Joined: Thu Feb 06, 2003 1:57 pm
- Location: Canton Michigan
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New York Hillbilly
- Posts: 687
- Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2002 11:54 pm
- Location: Soldotna, Alaska
Chris,
AMEN!!
Pete,
I share much of the same experiences you speak of. I think your hounds are probably like you .....on track most of the time.... .
Joe,
While I'm sure your a nice guy, your just to smart for me. I have a hard time reading all the stuff you write without getting dizzy. But then again I'm the type of guy that seems to do stuff the hard way much of the time.
Heck every x-mas finds me in one corner putting stuff together for the kids grumbling and the directions in the trash can. Everything goes together but I have lots of spare parts at times. .I'm one of those guys that would rather just "do it". And finally I must humbly admit I have never read all the books of the past "masters" in beagling because I have always been to busy hunting and learning the hard way on my own. I never even heard of these guys until I got dragged into the "new" world with this computer. I have always been just a guy that had a passion to chase rabbits with his hounds. Most of the time when I get home I'm to whipped to do anything but curl up like my hounds and sleep. Think I'm kidding? Ask the misses!!! Am I the know it all....NO..do I learn something new each season....yes....do I spoil my hounds with Mc Donalds Happy meals when they have run their hearts out for me....yes..does my house have AC in the summer...no...do the hounds...yes. Do I feel I'm part of my pack....yes...do my hounds love and trust me....yes ....do I love and trust them...yes....do some people think I'm a nut....YES.....do guys come looking for me and the hounds when they get the itch to chase rabbits...all the time! You know I can't help but think of "another" saying I heard a long time ago that seems to hold true. And it may not in this case...but it still makes me laugh. "Those who can DO.....those who can't....TEACH"
Peace and good running,
NYH
AMEN!!
Pete,
I share much of the same experiences you speak of. I think your hounds are probably like you .....on track most of the time....
.Joe,
While I'm sure your a nice guy, your just to smart for me. I have a hard time reading all the stuff you write without getting dizzy. But then again I'm the type of guy that seems to do stuff the hard way much of the time.
Heck every x-mas finds me in one corner putting stuff together for the kids grumbling and the directions in the trash can. Everything goes together but I have lots of spare parts at times.
.I'm one of those guys that would rather just "do it". And finally I must humbly admit I have never read all the books of the past "masters" in beagling because I have always been to busy hunting and learning the hard way on my own. I never even heard of these guys until I got dragged into the "new" world with this computer. I have always been just a guy that had a passion to chase rabbits with his hounds. Most of the time when I get home I'm to whipped to do anything but curl up like my hounds and sleep. Think I'm kidding? Ask the misses!!! Am I the know it all....NO..do I learn something new each season....yes....do I spoil my hounds with Mc Donalds Happy meals when they have run their hearts out for me....yes..does my house have AC in the summer...no...do the hounds...yes. Do I feel I'm part of my pack....yes...do my hounds love and trust me....yes ....do I love and trust them...yes....do some people think I'm a nut....YES.....do guys come looking for me and the hounds when they get the itch to chase rabbits...all the time! You know I can't help but think of "another" saying I heard a long time ago that seems to hold true. And it may not in this case...but it still makes me laugh. "Those who can DO.....those who can't....TEACH" Peace and good running,
NYH
When my life on earth is ended....this is all I'm gonna say...Lord I've been a hard working pilgrim on the way!
Wingpatch: Reread my post. I said one should not breed two hounds with the same major fault. For example. If one has a hound who babbles he should not choose as a breeding partner another hound who also babbles.
Robert: Tractable: Easily managed, taught or controlled, docile, compliant.
Yes. Tractability is an inharited trait and hounds must be endowed with it at birth to allow the handler to bring it out through his training process. If the hound is endowed with tractability and is properly trained he will be biddable.
New York HillBilly. The fact is that no one can ever learn all there is to know about beagling in just a single life time. There just isn't enough time. I learn new things all the time both out running and from others onthese boards. But many who came before us wrote down a little of what they learned in their life times of running hounds for all of us to study and consider. Those men I had named had lots more experiance then either one of us both in years of running hounds and number of hounds. Certainly the best teacher is the hounds themselves but I do beleive that studying the experiances of some of those who came before us can only help in understanding what we are seeing. Common sence is a beaglers best tool. If we apply it to all things beagling we will come out on top. As far as just doing it goes I reckon I've owned my share of hounds and will have many more over the years to learn from. Lest you think posting here means you don't run hounds I'll remnd you that I'm responding to your posts pretty regularly as I am now doing.
Robert: Tractable: Easily managed, taught or controlled, docile, compliant.
Yes. Tractability is an inharited trait and hounds must be endowed with it at birth to allow the handler to bring it out through his training process. If the hound is endowed with tractability and is properly trained he will be biddable.
New York HillBilly. The fact is that no one can ever learn all there is to know about beagling in just a single life time. There just isn't enough time. I learn new things all the time both out running and from others onthese boards. But many who came before us wrote down a little of what they learned in their life times of running hounds for all of us to study and consider. Those men I had named had lots more experiance then either one of us both in years of running hounds and number of hounds. Certainly the best teacher is the hounds themselves but I do beleive that studying the experiances of some of those who came before us can only help in understanding what we are seeing. Common sence is a beaglers best tool. If we apply it to all things beagling we will come out on top. As far as just doing it goes I reckon I've owned my share of hounds and will have many more over the years to learn from. Lest you think posting here means you don't run hounds I'll remnd you that I'm responding to your posts pretty regularly as I am now doing.
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Guest
I honestly believe joe has some real good ideas, And i think he is sincer about shareing it with everone. a lot of my ideas about abeagle comes from running big game with hounds. bobcat, lion,&bear. and it has always been to ,run to catch. If a animal is running for it's life it is not going to do what it wants to,[run in ahole or walk out of the country] it is going to do what it has too 
Wingpatch: See, now we've found common ground. Hounds should pursue their rabbit. Actually the vast majority of times going to hole is the rabbits last choice. The first thing they'll do is try to dump the hounds with tricks if they can, or out distance them or just out run them. The only time they will go straight to the hole on a regular bases is when the hound is too fast for them.