A general forum for the discussion of hunting with beagles, guns, clothing and other equipment and just talking dawgs! (Tall tales on hunting allowed, but remember, first liar doesn't stand a chance)
Acoumo: I can't speak for field trials and frankly don't care because this discussion is about hound traits and not field trial fads. Once again opening on old scent is NOT from a powerful nose. Even hounds with poor noses will do it if they are cold trailers. Nor is does proper use of mouth come from strength of nose. BUT, I will grant you that a hound with a vary powerful nose must have the intelligence to handle it.
Wingpatch; I think such a dog might suit you.
Pete: We're after the same thing (hounds that can get the job done in all conditions with no excuses) Except it's not okay with me if they are tight mouthed or mouthy. Mouthy doesn't refer to how often they bark while moveing on the line but rather how often they bark when not on the line. Hare and rabbit will both sit tight until the hounds push them out. That's where searching ability comes in to find those that will sit tight and hope the hounds will go by. The one that barks a little may or may not "loosen the hare up" but he'll also interupt the work of his packmates. Besides, most times the sound of a hound barking soen't spook the hare until he knows they are on his scent. Rabbit feed more at night too and during the day they'll be sitting in their form. So what? Hounds are supposed to find them where they are.
ACOMEAU Joe! As in Aaron Comeau, its not that hard to spell. I don't care about field trials as well, but that is where most of the AKC registered stock is coming from. I would like to know where you have learned so much about what causes a hound to do anything? You talk like you can read their minds or speak canine. Most of yours and everyone elses opinions about these things are merly speculation. Speculation from years of watching dogs run. It isn't as complicated as you lead it on to be. You always have a scientific like definition for everything, where do you get them?
Well i can't believe it joe, he has not heard of JOE THE BEAGLE WISPERER.NO joe, believe me i know what a good hound is.and so does a lot of these other people. that is why we beg to differ with you. your ideas are not the rule in beagleing.not that you don't have some good ones,you do .butt not for all of us.
Aaron: Surely by now you know that speeling isn't one of my strong points.
Don't need to read their minds only need to read their actions. Hounds talk to you all the time with their actions, voice and body language; all you have to do is look, listen and see. If you have a better explanation for why some hounds open on an old line and others don't I'm all ears.
Some I learned from my betters and some I learned directly from the hounds, BUT, even those things I learned from other beaglers were confirmed by the hounds. I haven't made it out complicated at all that I can tell. It's pretty simple, basic stuff. Your right about me having an explanation for these things. There IS an explanation for all of it. Lets hear yours.
Wingpatch: I'm all ears for your explanation of the hound action too. If you have one.
joe its all in your definition. hilbilly has a dog he held in his arms and she was barking. she was on the line. she could smell it. i might call that mouthy and i think someday hell realize how faulty she is and send her over here with my faulty hounds. now he knows that im kidding and thats wishful thinking on my part. i like mouthy. i have a couple hounds who are very accurate they run right onthe track they are ball mouthed and i call them tite mouthed. there are pauses between barks it doesnt mean theyve lost the track its just there style. i dont care for this. they cant bark too much for me. if they have lost the track and still barking i call that babbling. i never want to see my hound barking when he isnt on and moving a track. if you cant smell it please shut up. rabbits move at night . a hound that cold trails a little will find them very quickly. a hound that cold trails a little will be able to run when others cant. ( not always but usually) a dog that i call mouthy will bark plenty when its tough running. these dogs that are tite mouthed sound good on a good day. they bore me on a bad day. i was willing to accept all your definitions til you told me that my hound lacks strength of nose and this is diferent from hot nosed.ill have to think about this a little. i think he does lack strength of nose but i still think hes hot nosed. i know he doesnt cold trail much. i have seen him cold trail a very little on a good day . you would call it working a line . its a stray hare kicked out earlier now i want to run him . dog is going to trail a track a half hour old. is this cold trailing. ? i encourage my dog to trail it up. why go hunting when we have a track right here. i hope he hasthe strength of nose to run it. if he barks on it a little ill be happy. if he just wags his tail and goes thats fine too but what if its gone too far and he opens out of hearing. then im going to call him tite mouthed . see where mouthy might be better. pete
Joe, I have tried to explain my thoughts and observations before and you pick them apart. I got my first beagle when I was six and have never been without one since, I am 33 years old. This post is a dead end at this point.
I forgot you wanted a definition of why some dogs open on a line and some don't. Dog A opens because he can smell it. Dog B does not open, because he can't smell it. Pretty simple.
Joe, I understand what you are saying and agree with you. It is hard to get your point across on a keyboard, would be nice if we had video examples or something to show sometimes.
Pete, I understand what you are saying too but you need to keep in mind that most of us don't get to hunt in conditions as severe as you do. Maybe if we did we would think a little differently.
Acomeau, if you really think that a dog barks every time it smells rabbit scent then you have a lot to learn. I watched a dog stop and turn on a dime this morning, follow an old track for about 60 yards, having to work at it, jump the rabbit that had probably been set-up for 2 hr.s and never bark until she saw it jump. All this was on crusty snow about 10:30 in the morning, that is why I figured the rabbit had been set-up for a while. Some dogs have strong noses but do not open until the scent is hot. Why is this so hard for some to understand or believe?
Chris wrote:If a tree falls in the woods, and your hound opens 1 minute before the rabbit is jumped, and there isn't anyone there to hear it -- is it a fault?
Chris,
Only if it lands on your hound and you were the one who cut it down. Then it is your fault!
Pete,
I am going to make sure you get one of Candy's pups if I have success with her next litter. The fact that you are not put out by her big nose and her loose lips when she can smell what she wants to chase has earned you a pup in my book. I would love a dozen like her as would every guy that has ever hunted over her with me. And I can provide names! You can start with the N.Y. State ARHA LP rep Frank Blockston. Ask him about the time he thought she was laying track across a swamp that was nothing but glare ice (that couldn't hold scent) because none of the other hounds with her would open.They could barely walk on it without tipping over let alone run on it. That is until the rabbit ran out of the swamp in front of us and up a snow covered hill. When the pack hit the hill and snow they all opened and ran the rabbit till we shot at so many times in the blowdowns it finally crawled in a hole.
I'll keep you posted as to when I breed her again.
NYH
When my life on earth is ended....this is all I'm gonna say...Lord I've been a hard working pilgrim on the way!
hilbilly i am already picking out names . id love a pup out of that dog . Tom there is no doubt in my mind that a dog can smell a track and not open. aarons either. i prefer one that barks when he can move this track. somebody else will say its too old if their dog wont bark on it. ill wait and see if he puts a hare on the end of it and if he does hes a champion to me. if he runs his mouth and doesnt produce than he stinks. ill say hes a babbler. this is also very simple to understand. i see way too many dogs that simply cant run when conditions are tough. im not alone in this. somebody please show me a line of dogs that can consistantly run in tough conditions and all of us will shut up about this. i dont mean one outstanding dog which i can find in all bloodlines but one with some consistancy. thanks pete
If a hound is cold trailing a rabbit so far that the rabbit is sitting tight out of hearing then there will certainly be problems involved with him getting to where the rabbit is. Grow a beard waiting for them to actually get a rabbit up if they're cold trailing that much; and they will surely go right past other rabbits that are sitting waiting to be run.
Aaron: Then let me relate an incident that actually happened. There are many such incidents that have happened over the years but we'll use this one for illustration. Two hounds are searching. One hound opens (A) and is picking along at an obviously difficult track. The other hound (B) harks to him and puts his nose on the line and feathers happily indicateing that he has scent but never opens. After a few seconds of evaluating the line that hound A is on hound B lifts his head and goes back to searching. But Hound A is still giving voice and hound B returns again and again he feathers indicateing he has scent, and does not open but again lifts his head and leaves the line and goes back to searching, only this time he finds a rabbit and the chase is on. Hound A is still working his line but is having difficulty. Hound B's rabbit passes close to hound A and he finally leaves his line for the hot chase with hound B.
Now this is an actual event that I have witnessed. Clearly both hounds did smell the cold line as their actions indicated. Since both smelled the line we could not say that one had a better nose then the other BUT one hound correctly evaluated the viability of the line and one did not. If we were to look at only strebgth of nose then we would have to say that hound B has the stronger nose because he could correctly age the line that hound A could not. I don't beleive that's the case though. I beleive hound A processed the scent differently or lacked intelligence. I don't know which because I haven't observed that particular hound enough to know which it is. Clearly the hounds you are speaking of don't lack intelligence so that only leaves them not processing the information the same way.
Joe West wrote:Clearly the hounds you are speaking of don't lack intelligence so that only leaves them not processing the information the same way.
I suppose there's a major difference in those two terms, too, huh Joe?
This is nuts.
Go back to NYH's example of his female running across the ice -- she was running the rabbit and the others weren't. Was it because they were stupid, and she was smart? Was it because she was processing the information correctly, and the other's weren't?
NO! It was because she could smell it enough to run, and they couldn't, period. They would run up to that ice; then give 'happy tail', and go look for another rabbit. That rots. Try and explain it any way you want, but it still rots.
You are right on the money there Chris, but in order to get or breed better dogs, dogs that can smell to track across the ice and do it consistently I think you have to try to explain it and understand why. It has to be much more difficult than putting two dogs together with superior noses or we would all have pups that can run in any conditions. I have seen many dogs that can't run in snow when conditions are good let alone what you guys have to deal with all winter. I have a young male here that is 9 months old now and last monday morning he jumped and ran 4 cottontails to holes in 2 hr.s. It rained here Sunday evening then the temp.s dropped to below zero that night, everything was frozen solid monday morning. I was not even making tracks on the old snow and trust me that doesn't happen often. It wasn't the prettiest sight while the pup was tracking but he stuck with it and he did it. He got that nose because there are some breeders that do pay attention to and think about and try to explain why some dogs can and some dogs can't do it.
,,BEAGLEWISPERER you were saying???? 
