LP-MOH Question

[Ted Peercy]

Two judges are judging a cast of 5 dogs, and have had two splits after a breakdown and dead tracked both tracks. A third rabbit is jumped and all 5 dogs go 100 yards and break down. Before the 15 seconds is counted for a check, and almost simultaniously, a split occurs, with 3 dogs going in one direction, and the other two dogs going 180 degrees in the opposite direction. Both are hot races. One of the judges yells to the handlers, "Dead Track. Handle your dogs." One of the handlers throws up his hands and asks why. The judges talk briefly to each other and withoug saying another word, start following and judging the 3 dogs. After the cast is over the two handlers who had to catch and bring up their dogs, protest the cast. You are the MOH. How do you rule?

[Big Dog]

If the two judges allowed the two guys to catch their dogs and put them in while not scoring the other 3 dogs that were already running then everything is fair and the scorecard should stand as it is. If they continued to score the other 3 dogs while the other 2 handlers were catching their dogs and trying to get them in, then the master of hounds should throw out those results and re-run the whole cast.

Big Dog

[mac40391]

well first of all its the judges discretion on what to do here . they can call a split and have everyone handle the dogs then try to get all the dogs on one track is what i would have done unless i thought i knew which one was the original rabbit but in this case if one of the judges called track dead then the track was dead. they would in this case have a reason for a protest. you can't call dead track and then change your mind after the fact,thats not fair to all hounds and/or handlers in the cast. i as a MOH
would have reran the cast.

[mac40391]

i disagree with bigdog on putting the dogs in with the other three because the two dogs that are left out have a disadvantage to the other three that are already running that hot track , but mostly because the judge has already called the track dead. and the handlers are cunfused and misinformed that that track is dead so all handlers must catch thier hounds and start from scratch.

[letumrun]

if they called dead track on the first split they should have done the same the other times just my thoughts


when i judge this is what i do if they have a split i will call dead track and get all the dogs together and go from first breakdown and i let the handlers know before the start of the cast thats what i am going to do

[Big Dog]

Anyone who has ever been to the world hunt has more than likely had a dead track called due to a split at sometime and then agreed to put the caught dogs in with the ones that are already running. If you do this then you can go from the first breakdown after all dogs are in. There is no problem there, Now if the judge called dead track and continued to score while other handlers were catching there dogs then that is a whole different thing, but if they called dead track and stopped scoring until all dogs were in then there should be no problem. If they didn't stop scoring then the master of hounds should re-run the cast. communication is the key, the judge should let everyone know what is going on so that if there any problems they can be handled on the spot.

Here is a problem that I have, why do some judges refuse to give you score updates at breakdowns, what is there to hide?

Big Dog

[AV Spencer]

Big Dog,

That does happen all the time. However, do you feel your dog has missed out on anything or is thinking why did he do that. You have more than likely pulled him off a runnable track. Which hardly ever is done in the field while pleasure running or gunning.

If the rabbits seem plentiful, I like to start from fresh. If not, I put in.
OR, depending on time and score.
I do think there is a SMALL disadvantage for the dogs that have to be caught.
AV

[Big Dog]

Hello AV, I am sure that my dogs wonder what the heck I am doing when I go to a trial, since I never use a leash after I leash break a pup unless it is at a trial, and I am completely quiet instead of talking to them as they hunt like I normally do.(LOL)

I agree that on most occassions I will just call dead track and have everyone handle there dogs and start from scratch if rabbits are plentiful, but if they aren't I try to run one if I get it. In this case it would have probably gone a lot smoother if they had just caught all of the dogs after calling a dead track, but as long as they didn't score anything until all dogs were in then there shouldn't be a problem. The key is that judge must communicate and let everyone know wht he is doing so noone will think they are getting screwed.

Big Dog

[mac40391]

i would agree this time , i just think it was mishandled from the time it was called dead track, for one thing it shows dought in the judgement call
that was made and i feel that if you make a call you should be sure of what your calling and stick with it . but your right that if the score didn't change that it really didn't hurt either hound but what about the handlers that had to run the two hounds down who knows how far and run them back who knows how much farther to put them in is that fair? and i do firmly believe that if those three dogs are already running that rabbit they have an advantage at least till the other two get settled in on it. just my opinion...........

[PREACHERS KENNEL]

i aint a master of hounds yet but am takeing the test soon . after the dead track was called it shoulds been stopped or like bog dog said no score till all dogs r there then u have even ground!

[Plowboy]

Thats right Bog Dog..lol
I am with you

[AV Spencer]

Mac,
That is what I'm sayin' to brother. I think the three dogs have a little advantage. If there aren't rabbits to run then I put in. If there are, I like to go from scratch.

I umpire varsity baseball all around Central Indiana and you better believe once you make a judgement call you better stay with it. Or like the Big Dog said, "Someone thinks they got screw."

[Lynn Perkins]

Two judges are judging a cast of 5 dogs, and have had two splits after a breakdown and dead tracked both tracks. A third rabbit is jumped and all 5 dogs go 100 yards and break down. Before the 15 seconds is counted for a check, and almost simultaniously, a split occurs, with 3 dogs going in one direction, and the other two dogs going 180 degrees in the opposite direction. Both are hot races. One of the judges yells to the handlers, "Dead Track. Handle your dogs." One of the handlers throws up his hands and asks why. The judges talk briefly to each other and withoug saying another word, start following and judging the 3 dogs. After the cast is over the two handlers who had to catch and bring up their dogs, protest the cast. You are the MOH. How do you rule?

They called track dead, and then as stated start following and JUDGING the other three dogs.
Now here is the problem i see (it says they say nothing) did everyone know what the score was before the split and them calling the track dead,its says they judged them,so i'm sure if there was any scoring they got the score,so to be fair to all dogs i would order the cast ran over if MOH in this case and roll out 2 more judges to judge it.

The key to this is fairness to all dogs involved and in this case wasn't.
Sounds as if the handler that asked the judge why call a dead track was getting alittle aggravated and maybe caused the judges to make a bad choice into holding his ground on the dead track call.As a judge you have to stand your ground on your calls regardless of who it pisses off.

[JIMMIE ABSHIRE]

SOUNDS LIKE JUDGES MADE RIGHT CALL UP TO THE POINT OF FOLLOWING THE 3 DOG CAST ........... A DEAD TRACK IS THAT DEAD ,AS A JUDGE I WILL STICK TO MY CALL .... IF YOU WANNA GET PISSY YOU CAN GO HOME CAUSE I WILL NOT LISTEN TO IT . THE WAY IT SHOULDA BEEN HANDLE IS THIS LAST DEAD TRACK THAT WAS CALLED .I AM WITH THAT LETS CATCH ALL THE DOGS AND GETTA UM ON 1 TRACK GOING THE RIGHT WAY . THATS MY BIGGEST COMPLAINT TODAY WITH NKC SPLITS SUCK UNLESS YOU ARE ON THE GOOD END OF IT IN WHICH I SELDOM AM . THERE HAS GOTTA BE A DIFFERENT WAY TO ADDRESS THIS .ALL DOGS DESERVE THE CHANCE TO SCORE HARS TO DO WHEN THERE 100 YARDS AWAY. MAJORITY OF PACK USE TO BE RULE OF THUMB ,NOW WHO KNOWS ,, ANOTHER COMPLAINT ON MY TOP OF BITCH LIST CANT YOU JUDGES TELL WHEN DOGS GET JUMPS? LOOKS AS THOUGH IF YA JUDGE YOU WOULD . JUMPS ARE VERY TOUCHY AMONG NKC ,,,,,, I WILL PROMISE YOU THIS I MAY NEVER HEARD DOG A BARK BUT I WILL TELL A JUMP USE THAT HEAD YOUNG JUDGES. AND OLD AS FAR A ORIGINAL QUESTION RERUN CAST WITH DIFFERENT JUDGES----------JUST MY THOUGHTS

[mac40391]

I agree with Lynn being a lisenced field judge you better know the rules and make the calls to the best of your knowledge and stick by what you call. If not you just let everyone know that you don't know or should i say not sure about the call. But thats the problem with alot of judges and
or clubs today judges are hard to come by so clubs sometimes make it to easy for judges to get there lisence in some cases , alot of times they are not sure of the rules therefore are unsure of the calls they make. i have been a lisenced field judge since 1995 and always keep up on rules and rule changes . Not saying that i have ever made a mistake cause lord knows i probably have but if i make a call i'd take a buttwhippin before i'd change that call.Also this problem may have came from having two judges
and not specifying that one judge is just a helper and one being the main judge . I always like judgeing by myself but there are times and places that this is just not possible so always tell the cast at the begenning of the cast that you are the main judge and you have the say so.If this was the case the main judge would be able to over rule the call of the helper and decide to go with the three dogs if he felt that was the original track. I would not see a problem with this because the helper might not be as experianced as the main judge and might have made a premature call or the main judge might have seen something that the other judge and / or cast did'nt see.