Option to hold dog as open...

[Wilson Creek Bill]

I don't usually have any good ideas to start a topic on here, but i heard something this weekend at a hunt that i believe is a good discussion.
I met Tom Floyd this weekend, and anybody who knows Tom, knows they run strickly for points. And me being fairly new at field trialing found it very interesting how they run in hunts. Unlike me, they cant have a dog win.. Take his Willie dog.. Excellent dog, but doesn't have a first place. Only by choice though. Me, i would love to have a few first places.
To make a long story short, we got on the subject of having to always scratch a dog if it wins. Why couldn't we have the option to hold a dog in the open even if it wins until the end of the year. They can continue in the open class until the end of the year, just for hound of the year points. But if they hunt one time in the champion class, then there done. There champion class. And at the end of the year they automatically move up. Its just a thought, and it would keep alot of dogs from being scratched.. Lets here some opinions..

[mike crabtree]

I think it is bull scratching a dog that is going to win. It isnt fair to the other people who run ( true ) open dogs against a dog that should be champion.
Their shouldnt be a points race in opens if it causes bull like this to happen.
I cant imagine going to a trial thinking boy I hope my dog gets 2nd. To me that is a joke. I trial to have a good time, meet new people, and WIN.

[MURL-BEAGLER]

I'm with Mike on this. To me this is not about the dog. If a person will do this, then what else will they do to be on top and/or make themselves look good (in their eyes).

[xdawg]

Sounds like a bunch of crap to me...

-Jack

[ky joe]

I have seen a dog win the open class hound of the year 2 years in a row and has 2nd in open HOY right now. I heard someone ask the guy one day why the dog didnt have a first place, he said, the dog sucks. You dont beat the 2nd place dog bye over 200 points with a dog that sucks. It just dont seem fair to me.

Leave it up to a Wilson Creek boy to start a topic like this one.

Trouble Maker!!!!! LOL

[WrongsideRandy]

lol.......You all sound like I did about 5 years ago when I first learned LP had this rule where dogs move up without certification. I was use to the way PP does it........where you have to certify before you move up. I seen dogs in PP get 10 or more wins as opens and I always loved drawing out with them dogs even though my dogs usually got whipped.

I have scratched dogs that had casts won.....because the dog didnt deserve the win, but I had never heard tell of such a thing as scratching a dog to keep it from winning when it deserves the win.

I will say though that is the rules......and if a guy is spending $20,000-$30,000+ a year to run for points, I think its his choice to scratch a dog or not.........its a shame the rules force his hand. I can understand why a guy would scratch a dog though, if your intentions from the get go was to run for HOY. Or if you have a young dog that you dont want to move up yet. In my opinion it isnt fair a 1 year old dog may get thrown in with 4-5 year old Champs and Grands.

Just my thoughts,
Randy

[Aaron Bartlett]

Ive got some thoughts on this subject but I dont have time right now to write a book(need to get started cutting up deer). For the time being im going to move this the the "Field Trial" forum and I will make my post later. Good topic.

[mike crabtree]

Randy, I can see your point, but why should the other open dog owners have to compete against a dog that should be a champion. HOY points should have a way of carrying over class to class.

[Adam M. O'Donnell]

I know a guy who does this and he is high in the point standings! He is also not liked by some other beaglers. I personally like him and feel it is his money!
Here is my question though....
If a guy running the points race placed first and second. He is obviously going to scratch the first place dog to avoid finishing the dog. However, would he have to scratch the second place dog as well, as to not be moved up to first place???
Or do the second place dogs "not" advance after the first place dog is scratched?

[mike crabtree]

Dogs do not slot up in ARHA Im not sure about UKC. In ARHA that is why it would suck to see that happen, nobody wins the hunt.

[burbba]

I'm not a seasoned trialer, but call me what you will.... I dont see justification in giving a dog the "honor" of HOY without a win. Seems to me the "HOY" should be a dog that races through the ranks in a given year. Started the year in the opens and works his/her way to grands, etc...

If a dog cant get a 1st/win, he/she shouldnt be "anything" of the year, when comparing to so many other quality dogs that climb the ranks within a 12 month span...

my thoughts, nothing more

[WrongsideRandy]

Randy, I can see your point, but why should the other open dog owners have to compete against a dog that should be a champion. HOY points should have a way of carrying over class to class.

Mike....My reasoning is that the other open dogs should be able to beat the best dogs or they are not deserving of being a Champion yet. I guess my thinking is that if you have a good dog its gonna eventually beat that above average dog that never gets a win. I know I always loved drawing out against the best in the country....nothing I loved more than running against a dog that is just flat awesome. I remember Guy Russel telling me once...."To be the best you have to beat the best" and there has never been words that stuck with me like those did. I had an open dog that had 25 or more 2nd places before a judge gave him a win (In my opinion one of the few times a dog of mine won that I felt didnt deserve to win).

Now something I did think about after my first post. Lets pretend their is a opens final cast with dog a,b,c,d......dog A is winning the HOY race and is dominating this cast, a win will make A, B and D a Champion.....what if dog b, c , and d are also in the HOY race........do they all scratch?? lol or lets say dog C is below average and not in the HOY race and got into the finals cast because all the other dogs in its first round cast ran off game...say Dog A & B & D are in the HOY race and are dominating cast and they scratch....now dog C becomes a Champion without deserving it.

So after some thought.......I dont really know what to think about it, lol. I am lost for words, and that dont happen often

You all take care,
Randy

[WrongsideRandy]

Dogs do not slot up in ARHA Im not sure about UKC. In ARHA that is why it would suck to see that happen, nobody wins the hunt.

In PP you have to scratch that dog while they are running. Example....there are 1 minute of running time left you must yell to the judge to scratch your dog. Then the dog thats running 2nd becomes 1st, 3rd becomes 2nd........I scratched my dog one day when she had a 40 -0-0-0-0-0 lead on the cast.........I scratched her with 30 seconds left int he cast and they had to bring back all 5 dogs to the next round, and gave them 7 dogs which meant a semi finals before final cast....... boy did that make some judges and a MOH angry.

Mike, I dont know how LP works and I have only ran in them a few times, but I would have thought you would have to scratch the dog while they are hunting and time left on the clock, is this not right???

Take care all,
Randy

[mike crabtree]

Randy, that would suck if the sorry dog made champion. Lots of people on here say they would scratch their dog if it didnt deserve to win. I sure havent saw that happen yet.

[Adam M. O'Donnell]

Mike,
You made a great point! I think the sorry dog owner should scratch too since he doesn't deserve the win either!!! LOL!!! Then who wins? LOL!!!