There are a few things that have been brought up so far that no one seems to know the answer to or wasn't around PKC Beagles when it first started so I will answer a couple of things I know of for a fact and state my stance on this topic.
Houndsound- In the beginning and I believe it is still true today, PKC dropped the registration fee for a dog from $25 to $15 and your dog would be considered "Foundation Stock" for PKC. They never had free registration but they did offer reduced registration. I really wouldn't expect to see a free registration in any of the KC's. Also in the beginning PKC did offer free or reduced hunts to a club and I think the club could have up to 2 of them that way, I'm not 100% correct on that but there was diffenitely a cost reduction for a new club wanting to hold a PKC event. PKC message board requiring a person to be a member before being able to post on it was forced upon PKC moderators due to some "guest" posters that couldn't act and behave like grown adults, so PKC implemented a "No member, no post" policy and since that time there has been quite a bit less negativism posted on there. It is easy for someone to say something about someone if they don't have to sign it. And as far as PKC needing someone to head the "program" and get involved with the magazines, you are 100% correct. The only official voice that the beaglers had at PKC was Steve Fielder, but since, he has moved on to AKC. Now, I believe Mike Craney is the contact for beagles and I can't say if that is a good thing or a bad thing as I don't personnally know Mike, but I can say his first obligation to PKC is the coondogs. You have valid points but some of them have been tried with little or no success.
Jimmy- I did have a dog there, but as usual I can't ever make it to the big dance.
StoneyBranch- It's too bad that you couldn't make it to the meeting at PKC as your input could have been used. PKC attempted to get people involved that they knew wanted the program to succeed. The small pack rules meeting was held on a Saturday and the H&H rules meeting was held on Sunday. Since the turnout of the H&H rules meeting was going to be low, I was also asked to stay overnight in Evansville and attend the meeting the next day, in which I did. At that time I definitly was not the right person for that format as I had never been to a UKC hunt and these rules were very similar to those that PKC was drafting. That Sunday Larry Meeks, Steve, myself, Dave Hummel (Ohio), and Rex Alhands (Missouri) sat and went over the rule changes. You are correct that there were many more changes to the Small Pack rules than that of the H&H and mostly due to the number of heads and ideas in the room. If my memory serves me right there were only a couple of changes to the H&H format. I still have the orginal paperwork at home from those meetings if you are interested in what did change and take place.
Personnally I don't care if they drop one or both sets and start over, but I can say this, IF you have ever sat on a rules committee it is very and I mean very hard to cover every scenerio and or grey areas in the rules. Just when you think you have the solution someone else in the room would say "What about if this happens?" and you start all over again with the discussion. The small pack rules meeting started early in the day and we went straight through lunch and supper ( Thanks to Rita Meeks for bringing us something in to eat) and it lasted way into the morning like 2 a.m. and we still didn't think we covered everything we could have. But it was far better than it was. Thinking back to those meetings the things that stick out in my mind are that - 1.) Larry Meeks would not support any rules that were exactly like those of other KC's, he wanted to have their own set of rules, granted they were going to resemble others but not duplicate. 2.) He expressed to us at those meetings that he expected and needed PKC beagling to start off slow and build over time. 3.) He wanted to promote a organization that could be fun and fair that all could enjoy and for those that didn't want to play fun and fair then they were not welcome with PKC, that is where the "Professional" in PKC comes from. A persons actions and the way they conducted themselves while participating in an event. Bad thing for us with PKC as beaglers is that Steve Fielder moved on to AKC. Maybe Steve didn't know much about beagles, maybe he did but one thing for sure is that he was "our" voice at PKC that was heard by management and now I don't believe we have anybody but ourselves. At the time I was asked by PKC to put some of my time into promoting the idea on a paid basis, not the kind where I could quit my job but as time allowed. This never happened to the extent that it should have, mostly because I didn't feel like there was support from others besides Steve and I stll don't. Once PKC decides if they really want a program (and I'm not sold they do) then and only then will it succeed. Look at their squirrel dog program, it has been around for several years and still is not even a small pimple on the butt of the coondog program and for what I see it is solely because of support from management. It would take some work and dedication on someone's part but this program either it be small pack or H&H or both would take off and succeed.
I feel like I have done my part in trying to make this thing take off. I can say people like Aaron, Mike Bellamy, Gabe Stockton, Earl Bruner, the Bull Run Beagle club, the club in West Virginia that is holding several H&H hunts have all done their part in trying to make this thing work by having hunts and supporting the program but it needs some full time help if it is to "take off"! The rules in each have their own problems but like every other KC's those rules need to be used for a while before any changes should be made. I would say that there has been enough of both hunts for some valuable input on some changes. Remember though you have to have a set of rules that is easy enough to enforce and doesn't take a lawyer to figure out all the verbage. They need to be short, sweet, understandable and to the point. Good luck on getting this done!
As far as two sets of rules go- I will still stand behind having dual sets. It allowsmore players to play the game and it wouldn't be that hard to separate the formats to allow for a world championship and so on, it would take some brainstorming but it could be done.
I have heard people say that they wouldn't play for cash prizes because they have seen grown men fight over a trophy and couldn't imagine what one would do for cash. My thoughts are that if a man will fight over a trophy then you are exactly right he will probably fight over money, but the thing that Larry Meeks said about coming and acting like a "Professinal" or not being allowed to come back appeared to me to be sincere and from those that I know in PKC coondog program they have said that you can bet your best hat on that one. With all the problems that are going on with one of the KC's management it would be nice to see one with one set of rules made for everyone that is involved with nobody being above the law.
Just my thoughts!
Craig
PKC Beagling
Moderators: Pike Ridge Beagles, Aaron Bartlett
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dogrunnerone
- Posts: 130
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I certainly know where Wardog is coming from, been there and done that. And, it will never change, there is something about human nature that causes these things to happen.
I have participated at PKC's highest level of competition hunting and I have personally seen that a lot of the stuff that happens in a lot of other registries events doesn't happen (as much) at these bigger events. I believe there are 2 reasons. First, is PKC's management. I am not trying to suck up to anyone by saying that Larry Meeks and the folks that work for him are as honest as folks get. And, they are experianced enough that you can't pull the wool over their eyes. They do their best to weed out cheats and they are good Christians who practice what they preach.
The other reason I see a lot of honesty is that the cast members have a stake in keeping everything honest. When you are hunting for a $25,000 cash prize, everyone KNOWS the rules and a cheater will get caught and exposed very quickly. The entire cast votes on most rulings and the majority rules. You can get screwed by a couple of buddies in the same cast but with an honest, random draw, it doesn't happen often. Plus, with PKC, there is an area on the scorecard that can be signed by any cast member that feels he was cheated and the whole cast is thrown out.
I feel these 2 reasons go a long way to keep PKC more honest that other organizations.
That is the reason I feel that any PKC rules need to have a scoring system where the entire cast needs to be able to participate in the scoring. No judge off by himself that may be part of some "Mafia" or other organization that could possibly alter who wins a cast or hunt. That is the reason I think the Hound and Hunter format (or some altered version of it) has to be used. If a Super Stakes or World Championship was to ever come about, everyone has to qualify under the same rules for it to be possible. You can't have one guy qualifying under a system where the entire cast is the judge, another guy qualifying under a system where a form of a "Mafia" (good buddies helping each other) help a dog get qualified.
My main interest in PKC has been the Super Stakes program because I consider myself a dog breeder. I think a program where breeders can compete for large cash prizes would be great. But, there must be a fair set of rules.
PKC has always been about dogs that produce the meat. Let's have PKC Beagling where the rabbit must be seen for plus points are given. By the way, you can win PKC casts on circle or minus points if your dog is the high scoring dog. So if the rabbit is not seen, you can still have a cast winner.
I think I may get lucky and be able to breed some better beagles. But, maybe you have a better plan. Let's compete.
I have participated at PKC's highest level of competition hunting and I have personally seen that a lot of the stuff that happens in a lot of other registries events doesn't happen (as much) at these bigger events. I believe there are 2 reasons. First, is PKC's management. I am not trying to suck up to anyone by saying that Larry Meeks and the folks that work for him are as honest as folks get. And, they are experianced enough that you can't pull the wool over their eyes. They do their best to weed out cheats and they are good Christians who practice what they preach.
The other reason I see a lot of honesty is that the cast members have a stake in keeping everything honest. When you are hunting for a $25,000 cash prize, everyone KNOWS the rules and a cheater will get caught and exposed very quickly. The entire cast votes on most rulings and the majority rules. You can get screwed by a couple of buddies in the same cast but with an honest, random draw, it doesn't happen often. Plus, with PKC, there is an area on the scorecard that can be signed by any cast member that feels he was cheated and the whole cast is thrown out.
I feel these 2 reasons go a long way to keep PKC more honest that other organizations.
That is the reason I feel that any PKC rules need to have a scoring system where the entire cast needs to be able to participate in the scoring. No judge off by himself that may be part of some "Mafia" or other organization that could possibly alter who wins a cast or hunt. That is the reason I think the Hound and Hunter format (or some altered version of it) has to be used. If a Super Stakes or World Championship was to ever come about, everyone has to qualify under the same rules for it to be possible. You can't have one guy qualifying under a system where the entire cast is the judge, another guy qualifying under a system where a form of a "Mafia" (good buddies helping each other) help a dog get qualified.
My main interest in PKC has been the Super Stakes program because I consider myself a dog breeder. I think a program where breeders can compete for large cash prizes would be great. But, there must be a fair set of rules.
PKC has always been about dogs that produce the meat. Let's have PKC Beagling where the rabbit must be seen for plus points are given. By the way, you can win PKC casts on circle or minus points if your dog is the high scoring dog. So if the rabbit is not seen, you can still have a cast winner.
I think I may get lucky and be able to breed some better beagles. But, maybe you have a better plan. Let's compete.
How about class for claiming dogs ? i.e. 200 and/or 400 dollar claiming class. This concept has been thriving in the OFTA (OHIO FIELD TRIAL ASS.) for over 50 years. For those that don't know, OFTA is the day time coonhound field trials(seen at Kenton Nationals). I can provide detials if interested, I floated this idea at an ARHA Trial, but not much interst. In my opinion a claiming class would draw more spectators to an event, and produce additional revenue, for the sponsor or hosting club, and of course hound owner.
Just a thought.
Just a thought.
Big Mike
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houndsound
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- Location: Sheridan, WY
Craig, please correct me if I am wrong, but were not the PKC Hound and Hunter rules drawn up by you and Steve Fielder? The reason I am asking is that if that is true, judging from what I have read on the boards, at that time you had not attended any hunts that used a similar format and I know my friend Steve is not a beagler who competition hunts. So, these rules were drawn up by folks that not competed under a similar format. To be honest, I don't think there would have been a H&H format if I didn't raise a fuss at PKC's first beagle hunt about another format besides the Small Pack rules. I know for a fact that none of the guys that were at the first (and only) PKC Rabbit Hunter's Rule Meeting never had attended anything but an ARHA LP hunts. I asked, I know. There was a UKC Beagle club at Belmont, Illinois, a short drive from Evansville but none of these folks were allowed to attend the rule meeting, it was ONLY ARHA people. That was a very poor decission by Steve and a big part of the reason PKC Beaging has not taken off.
My point is that if wasn't for the Hound and Hunter rules, there would NOT be a PKC Beagle Program. Just look in any of your magazines, folks are only booking H&H hunts. I don't think having a judge off by himself will ever work in a cash award system. It would be too easy to make a deal in the coffeeshop the day before. I am not saying all people would do this but if you had a $25,000 award, you know as well as I do some folks would be making plans and deals. On the other hand, if the whole cast does the judging, everyone has a stake in keeping everything honest and all decissions are up for voting by the cast members. It works very well for the Nite Hunt program, PKC's moneymaker.
In my opinion, the H&H rules are better than the other rules but they certainly could be better. Beagles make checks and minus points should be awarded for checks and plus points need to be given for the dog that gets the track moving again. There are other tweeks that could be made. I personally like the feature that speed and drive points are awarded any time the rabbit is seen and a line can be made to judge which dog is leading the pack. Sometimes you only see the rabbit once and it may not be before the rabbit is circled.
Craig, this message is not a personal attack. Believe it or not, I admire you and your dedication to competition beagling. But, we have in the past and probably will in the future, butt heads over the rules. Maybe you are the guy that will step up and lead the PKC Beagle program. Someone needs to.
As for claiming dogs, I have seen it in water race dogs but I am not sure it would work in a PKC format. But, it does sound interesting. It sounds similar to the Calcuta system PKC has used for years auctioning off dogs trying to pick a winner before the hunt. I don't think it is done a lot these days but I don't attend a lot of Nite Hunts these days.
My point is that if wasn't for the Hound and Hunter rules, there would NOT be a PKC Beagle Program. Just look in any of your magazines, folks are only booking H&H hunts. I don't think having a judge off by himself will ever work in a cash award system. It would be too easy to make a deal in the coffeeshop the day before. I am not saying all people would do this but if you had a $25,000 award, you know as well as I do some folks would be making plans and deals. On the other hand, if the whole cast does the judging, everyone has a stake in keeping everything honest and all decissions are up for voting by the cast members. It works very well for the Nite Hunt program, PKC's moneymaker.
In my opinion, the H&H rules are better than the other rules but they certainly could be better. Beagles make checks and minus points should be awarded for checks and plus points need to be given for the dog that gets the track moving again. There are other tweeks that could be made. I personally like the feature that speed and drive points are awarded any time the rabbit is seen and a line can be made to judge which dog is leading the pack. Sometimes you only see the rabbit once and it may not be before the rabbit is circled.
Craig, this message is not a personal attack. Believe it or not, I admire you and your dedication to competition beagling. But, we have in the past and probably will in the future, butt heads over the rules. Maybe you are the guy that will step up and lead the PKC Beagle program. Someone needs to.
As for claiming dogs, I have seen it in water race dogs but I am not sure it would work in a PKC format. But, it does sound interesting. It sounds similar to the Calcuta system PKC has used for years auctioning off dogs trying to pick a winner before the hunt. I don't think it is done a lot these days but I don't attend a lot of Nite Hunts these days.
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JIMMIE ABSHIRE
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- Location: KENTUCKY
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SO BASICALLY WHAT UR SAYING IS THE ARHA FORMAT IS NOT GOOD
ENUFF FOR YOU ? REDTICK YOU MUST HAVE BEEN HATCHED ,PLEASE SHOW ME A FORMAT THAT IS 100% HONEST .I DONT CARE IF YOU GOT LARRY MEEKS AND TODD MORGAN STARING IN UR EYES PEOPLE CAN AND WILL FIND A WAY TO GET A EDGE ...... NOTICE I DID NOT SAY CHEAT . THERE IS A DIFFERENCE . THIS IS MY EDGE ,WHEN I SHOW UP TO HUNTS MY DOGS ARE NOT 5-7 POUNDS OVERWIEGHT -THEY DO NOT RUN TRASH AS A GENERAL RULE. PEOPLE MAKING THE DECISION FOR US USALLY DONT EVEN OWN DOGS .ITS A BUSINESS MY FRIEND NOT A PASSION ..... HECK SOMEONE TOLD ME DEL MORGAN DOES NOT EVEN OWN A DOG , SO HOW CAN HE TELL ME WHAT I NEED TO DO ? ASK OL SWING WHAT HONESTY GETS YOU . NOT ABLE TO COMPETE? I FIGURED OUT BACK IN THE EIGHTES AS WELL AS OTHERS ITS ALL LUCK AND LITTLE SKILL , I BEEN BEAT BY DOGS THAT WAITED FOR MY DOG TO JUMP IT WHILE MR.ROADWALKER NO ACCOUNT NO HUNT CHECKED ME TO DEATH .... REMEMBER THE WORLD FAMOUS BREEDER THAT ADS READ -----GIVE ME A CHECK DOG ---ENUFF SAID .SO WHEN ALL U FIGURE OUT WHICH WAY TO GO WHICH I PROMISE NOT ONLY WILL GET MY BLESSING YOU WILL GET 100% SUPPORT FROM MYSELF AS WELL AS SEVERAL OTHERS
ENUFF FOR YOU ? REDTICK YOU MUST HAVE BEEN HATCHED ,PLEASE SHOW ME A FORMAT THAT IS 100% HONEST .I DONT CARE IF YOU GOT LARRY MEEKS AND TODD MORGAN STARING IN UR EYES PEOPLE CAN AND WILL FIND A WAY TO GET A EDGE ...... NOTICE I DID NOT SAY CHEAT . THERE IS A DIFFERENCE . THIS IS MY EDGE ,WHEN I SHOW UP TO HUNTS MY DOGS ARE NOT 5-7 POUNDS OVERWIEGHT -THEY DO NOT RUN TRASH AS A GENERAL RULE. PEOPLE MAKING THE DECISION FOR US USALLY DONT EVEN OWN DOGS .ITS A BUSINESS MY FRIEND NOT A PASSION ..... HECK SOMEONE TOLD ME DEL MORGAN DOES NOT EVEN OWN A DOG , SO HOW CAN HE TELL ME WHAT I NEED TO DO ? ASK OL SWING WHAT HONESTY GETS YOU . NOT ABLE TO COMPETE? I FIGURED OUT BACK IN THE EIGHTES AS WELL AS OTHERS ITS ALL LUCK AND LITTLE SKILL , I BEEN BEAT BY DOGS THAT WAITED FOR MY DOG TO JUMP IT WHILE MR.ROADWALKER NO ACCOUNT NO HUNT CHECKED ME TO DEATH .... REMEMBER THE WORLD FAMOUS BREEDER THAT ADS READ -----GIVE ME A CHECK DOG ---ENUFF SAID .SO WHEN ALL U FIGURE OUT WHICH WAY TO GO WHICH I PROMISE NOT ONLY WILL GET MY BLESSING YOU WILL GET 100% SUPPORT FROM MYSELF AS WELL AS SEVERAL OTHERS
Old school Northway . Full Throttle no Bottle.
Craig:
Thanks for your excellent summary on what is going on in PKC.It confirmed alot of what I was thinking.I agree that having two seperate formats probably has little to do with PKC not succeeding.It soundslike we need two things to be successful.1st a serious financial and management effort on the part of PKC and then about 10 or 12 more Craig Tulls spread over a fairly wide geographic area.I know you have given a huge effort to help PKC become successful.As a beagler I very much appreciate it.
J.Murphy/Murphy's Kennel
Thanks for your excellent summary on what is going on in PKC.It confirmed alot of what I was thinking.I agree that having two seperate formats probably has little to do with PKC not succeeding.It soundslike we need two things to be successful.1st a serious financial and management effort on the part of PKC and then about 10 or 12 more Craig Tulls spread over a fairly wide geographic area.I know you have given a huge effort to help PKC become successful.As a beagler I very much appreciate it.
J.Murphy/Murphy's Kennel
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dogrunnerone
- Posts: 130
- Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2005 7:10 pm
- Location: Indiana
Ok let me try and answer a few more questions that have been asked of me.
JMurphy- The first set of rules that we all ran by at the first hunt were developed by people like Keith Buse, Jeff Tulley and others from that area that were soliciting Larry Meeks to put on PKC Beagle hunts. I knew nothing of PKC beagles at that time, my first knowledge was when the hunt was announced and I decided to go. It wasn't until after the first hunt that I got involved with anything to do with PKC as I stated in my earlier post when Keith called me. A meeting was suppose to happen fairly quickly but it never happened. The trial season was appching fast and no meeting had ever taken place and I knew that I wanted to put on a couple of hunts but not with the rules that we used at that first hunt, there were way too many loop holes for a experienced houndsman to use to his benefit to cause confusion and heartache. I called around to see if one was ever going to happen and nobody really was interested in making a go of it, so I took it upon myself to call Steve Fielder since I had sat with him for some time at the first hunt and talked beagle field trials. Steve was very open to any help he could get due to him being overwelmed with his other duties with the coondogs. He asked we to organize a group willing to sit on a rules committee, so the previously mentioned group of guys was asked and we all met at PKC HQ on 8/23/2003 and had a long successful session. At the time of putting together this list of names I was unaware of any other format being thought of, so maybe ole Redtick was a driving factor behind it, I don't know. The first time I heard about a possible H&H format was when Steve called me asking if I knew of some guys that he had contacted him and wanted to know if they were good guys or not, since he was not in the beagling community he had not heard of anyone at that time. I only knew a couple of the names and I don't remember one of them being Dave Haugh. Steve indicated that they too wanted to have a rules committee and come up with something close to the UKC format. Since Steve worked for UKC at the time the rules for beagles were developed he felt like they could take the UKC rules and tweak them to PKC. So, NO Dave, Steve and I did not make up the H&H rules, they took the already established UKC rules and used them. Not until very close to the time the meetings were to take place did I get involved with H&H. The meeting was scheduled for Small Pack and they wanted to have them on the same day since they were very busy men trying to run a hound business and a trucking business. But some of those that they wanted involved could not make it that particular day, I believe Aaron was one of those and I believe Tony Woodward was another. So I was asked to sit on both, I made the comment at the time to Steve and Larry that I wasn't up on UKC rules as I had never been to one but I didn't think for one second that I wasn't qualified to help, believe it or not Red I do know what it takes to make a good hound and believe it or not I like the same kind that you say you like, I too want a RABBITDAWG that fills that game pouch with rabbits, I was a rabbit hunter years before ever going to my first trial. I still want that kind of dog and that is what I breed for, bad thing for me is my dogs are almost to clean for little pack and almost to fast and rough for some UKC people ( all in who you draw and what they are packing with them). We all got together (Larry,Steve, Me, Dave Hummel(UKC Ohio) and Rex Alhands (UKC Missouri) and went over the UKC rules and made some changes to adapt for the new PKC H&H rules. Granted I did more listening during that meeting then talking but in my mind we had at least two experienced UKC trialer there giving their input. I don't remember there being a bunch of changes but those that I do had to do with minus points and checks/recovery points and that is where they were going to be different then UKC, remember what I said in my first post Larry Meeks was NOT going to support any PKC rules that were identical to any other KC's rules, so what you are suggesting Redtick about having check/recovery points was discussed.
Now for my personnel views on some of this. We need help and the kind from manangement, we will not make it happen without support and someone getting on the phone and getting clubs to hold hunts, they need to try some incentives to get people interested, that is if PKC is interested in having the program at all anyway. I see problems that Redtick has mentioned and they are legitimate, it's just the way he comes across as a broken record, never wanting to be part of the solution. He won't support until only one set of rules, what a bad choice in my opinion and the kind of support isn't helpful or needed. The small pack rules will have the same issues that they have in little pack. People talk about buddy judging in LP, I have been around for a number of years and have had years where I hit the road hard and it just doesn't happen as often as people think, if those same people could just accept that their dog can be beat alot of those accusations wouldn't happen. Small pack will always have the problem of getting good quality judges that can run with the dogs, I agree Redtick, there are no humans that will keep up with our dogs if the scenting is right, but a good judge cuts and slashes like the worst LP dog you ever saw so he can get there before the 15 seconds expire on the check. I have judged all over the U.S. and know for a FACT that what is going on in the pack very well could sound different back with the handlers and those handlers like yourself that have NEVER ran over their dogs because of age, health or laziness have no clue what their dog is doing 100% of the time, they think they do standing 100 yards away and unable to see the hounds just hear them but unless you see it with your own eyes (judge) there is no way to be able to determine who is doing what and if it is right or not. So how can you call checks and recoveries from a far distance away and don't tell me by the first one that gives mouth and starts moving because it just might not be right and is getting plus points when you just don't know. So I guess what I am leading to, is there are NO rules or KC's without their own problems, so you find one that you like and your dogs style fits and you go to those, that is why I prefer more than one format, it gives choice. As far as SS, Futurity, and so on, if you qaulify in SP or HH then that is where your points go and those are the dogs that you compete against. Heck they do it all the time, look at ARHA they have LP, PP, Gundog Pack and UKC has HH and SP both and they can keep all those records seperate and they are able to hold world championships in each.
Sorry for rambling but it takes alot to get through to some!
JMurphy- The first set of rules that we all ran by at the first hunt were developed by people like Keith Buse, Jeff Tulley and others from that area that were soliciting Larry Meeks to put on PKC Beagle hunts. I knew nothing of PKC beagles at that time, my first knowledge was when the hunt was announced and I decided to go. It wasn't until after the first hunt that I got involved with anything to do with PKC as I stated in my earlier post when Keith called me. A meeting was suppose to happen fairly quickly but it never happened. The trial season was appching fast and no meeting had ever taken place and I knew that I wanted to put on a couple of hunts but not with the rules that we used at that first hunt, there were way too many loop holes for a experienced houndsman to use to his benefit to cause confusion and heartache. I called around to see if one was ever going to happen and nobody really was interested in making a go of it, so I took it upon myself to call Steve Fielder since I had sat with him for some time at the first hunt and talked beagle field trials. Steve was very open to any help he could get due to him being overwelmed with his other duties with the coondogs. He asked we to organize a group willing to sit on a rules committee, so the previously mentioned group of guys was asked and we all met at PKC HQ on 8/23/2003 and had a long successful session. At the time of putting together this list of names I was unaware of any other format being thought of, so maybe ole Redtick was a driving factor behind it, I don't know. The first time I heard about a possible H&H format was when Steve called me asking if I knew of some guys that he had contacted him and wanted to know if they were good guys or not, since he was not in the beagling community he had not heard of anyone at that time. I only knew a couple of the names and I don't remember one of them being Dave Haugh. Steve indicated that they too wanted to have a rules committee and come up with something close to the UKC format. Since Steve worked for UKC at the time the rules for beagles were developed he felt like they could take the UKC rules and tweak them to PKC. So, NO Dave, Steve and I did not make up the H&H rules, they took the already established UKC rules and used them. Not until very close to the time the meetings were to take place did I get involved with H&H. The meeting was scheduled for Small Pack and they wanted to have them on the same day since they were very busy men trying to run a hound business and a trucking business. But some of those that they wanted involved could not make it that particular day, I believe Aaron was one of those and I believe Tony Woodward was another. So I was asked to sit on both, I made the comment at the time to Steve and Larry that I wasn't up on UKC rules as I had never been to one but I didn't think for one second that I wasn't qualified to help, believe it or not Red I do know what it takes to make a good hound and believe it or not I like the same kind that you say you like, I too want a RABBITDAWG that fills that game pouch with rabbits, I was a rabbit hunter years before ever going to my first trial. I still want that kind of dog and that is what I breed for, bad thing for me is my dogs are almost to clean for little pack and almost to fast and rough for some UKC people ( all in who you draw and what they are packing with them). We all got together (Larry,Steve, Me, Dave Hummel(UKC Ohio) and Rex Alhands (UKC Missouri) and went over the UKC rules and made some changes to adapt for the new PKC H&H rules. Granted I did more listening during that meeting then talking but in my mind we had at least two experienced UKC trialer there giving their input. I don't remember there being a bunch of changes but those that I do had to do with minus points and checks/recovery points and that is where they were going to be different then UKC, remember what I said in my first post Larry Meeks was NOT going to support any PKC rules that were identical to any other KC's rules, so what you are suggesting Redtick about having check/recovery points was discussed.
Now for my personnel views on some of this. We need help and the kind from manangement, we will not make it happen without support and someone getting on the phone and getting clubs to hold hunts, they need to try some incentives to get people interested, that is if PKC is interested in having the program at all anyway. I see problems that Redtick has mentioned and they are legitimate, it's just the way he comes across as a broken record, never wanting to be part of the solution. He won't support until only one set of rules, what a bad choice in my opinion and the kind of support isn't helpful or needed. The small pack rules will have the same issues that they have in little pack. People talk about buddy judging in LP, I have been around for a number of years and have had years where I hit the road hard and it just doesn't happen as often as people think, if those same people could just accept that their dog can be beat alot of those accusations wouldn't happen. Small pack will always have the problem of getting good quality judges that can run with the dogs, I agree Redtick, there are no humans that will keep up with our dogs if the scenting is right, but a good judge cuts and slashes like the worst LP dog you ever saw so he can get there before the 15 seconds expire on the check. I have judged all over the U.S. and know for a FACT that what is going on in the pack very well could sound different back with the handlers and those handlers like yourself that have NEVER ran over their dogs because of age, health or laziness have no clue what their dog is doing 100% of the time, they think they do standing 100 yards away and unable to see the hounds just hear them but unless you see it with your own eyes (judge) there is no way to be able to determine who is doing what and if it is right or not. So how can you call checks and recoveries from a far distance away and don't tell me by the first one that gives mouth and starts moving because it just might not be right and is getting plus points when you just don't know. So I guess what I am leading to, is there are NO rules or KC's without their own problems, so you find one that you like and your dogs style fits and you go to those, that is why I prefer more than one format, it gives choice. As far as SS, Futurity, and so on, if you qaulify in SP or HH then that is where your points go and those are the dogs that you compete against. Heck they do it all the time, look at ARHA they have LP, PP, Gundog Pack and UKC has HH and SP both and they can keep all those records seperate and they are able to hold world championships in each.
Sorry for rambling but it takes alot to get through to some!
Craig A. Tull
3398 N. 130 W.
Frankfort, In
(765) 659-3959
3398 N. 130 W.
Frankfort, In
(765) 659-3959
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dogrunnerone
- Posts: 130
- Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2005 7:10 pm
- Location: Indiana
Redtick wrote-
I know for a fact that none of the guys that were at the first (and only) PKC Rabbit Hunter's Rule Meeting never had attended anything but an ARHA LP hunts. I asked, I know.
You are wrong, dead wrong. Dave Hummel and Rex Alhands were both there and are UKC trialers.
Yet another LIE!
I know for a fact that none of the guys that were at the first (and only) PKC Rabbit Hunter's Rule Meeting never had attended anything but an ARHA LP hunts. I asked, I know.
You are wrong, dead wrong. Dave Hummel and Rex Alhands were both there and are UKC trialers.
Yet another LIE!
Craig A. Tull
3398 N. 130 W.
Frankfort, In
(765) 659-3959
3398 N. 130 W.
Frankfort, In
(765) 659-3959
Redtick.Caught again in yet more lies.1st you say something about "the one and only meeting" for PKC rules.The guys that put on that 1st hunt obviously had to have some type of meeting to format the rules for that 1st hunt.Those guys were hunters and trialers with some having a history in competing in PKC events.Someone had to get the ball rolling to have that 1st hunt and they did so.I think they are to be credited with being willing to do that.I got a call to let me know about that 1st hunt because at that point and time we were pretty active competing in ARHA hunts.I was told pretty much who was putting on that hunt.Craig Tull's name was never mentioned.I competed at the first hunt and lost but still had a great time.Many people seemed to enjoy themselves and the only person I have ever seen say anything negative about that hunt has been you.We waited for a long while thinking that more hunts were to happen.Finally I heard from Gabe Stockton that he and several others were going to a meeting where they were going to work on the rules..After that there started being a few hunts here and there and besides that 1st hunt we attended two more.Everything that Craig Tull has said about his involvement in PKC I have also learned from independent sources.Other than the than that cast at that 1st PKC hunt I have probably said 2 or 3 sentences to Craig.However you dont have to be around him very much to realize his sincerity and honesty.Because of that and the fact that I heard much of the same from others I have to believe that his description of events is as he said.Do you have any proof otherwise.I really dont think so as you just like to post things that support your own agenda and position regardless of the truth.I dont know the UKC people that Craig mentioned but I know that Gabe Stockton hadcompeted in several UKC events previous to that meeting.
Even without the folks that Craig mentioned this shows that you are nothing but a baldfaced liar.You also claim that folks from a UKC club werent allowed to attend the meeting.Do you have any evidence to prove this.I realize that they may not have been asked but that is something entirely different altogether than not being allowed.For that meeting Craig asked Gabe,Earl,Sammy, and Shannon because he was familiar with them.I think that is a pretty natural thing to do.The difference between you and Craig is after the first PKC hunt Craig went out and made an effort at making things happen in PKC and you went home and whined and cried that you were cheated and how the rules werent any good.Sort of shows a difference in charactor and integrity dont you think.As far as PKC goes I hope they are successful no matter which set or how many sets of rules they end up with.If they have trials I will compete even if the rules say we have to tie little pink bows in our dog's ears.I think several of Houndsounds ideas sound good.I dont know if they will help or not but they sound good to me.As I have stated before I think their has to be both a serious financial and management effort on PKC's part to make their beagle program successful.It can not be viewed as the ugly stepsister to their coonhound program.I have no idea how to make that happen but I hope the folks at PKC do.
J.Murphy/Murphy's Kennel
Even without the folks that Craig mentioned this shows that you are nothing but a baldfaced liar.You also claim that folks from a UKC club werent allowed to attend the meeting.Do you have any evidence to prove this.I realize that they may not have been asked but that is something entirely different altogether than not being allowed.For that meeting Craig asked Gabe,Earl,Sammy, and Shannon because he was familiar with them.I think that is a pretty natural thing to do.The difference between you and Craig is after the first PKC hunt Craig went out and made an effort at making things happen in PKC and you went home and whined and cried that you were cheated and how the rules werent any good.Sort of shows a difference in charactor and integrity dont you think.As far as PKC goes I hope they are successful no matter which set or how many sets of rules they end up with.If they have trials I will compete even if the rules say we have to tie little pink bows in our dog's ears.I think several of Houndsounds ideas sound good.I dont know if they will help or not but they sound good to me.As I have stated before I think their has to be both a serious financial and management effort on PKC's part to make their beagle program successful.It can not be viewed as the ugly stepsister to their coonhound program.I have no idea how to make that happen but I hope the folks at PKC do.
J.Murphy/Murphy's Kennel
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houndsound
- Posts: 452
- Joined: Wed Jun 30, 2004 7:48 am
- Location: Sheridan, WY
Who exactly is responsible for the rules? How many meetings were held? Was there a perfect cross section of hunters and trialers invited and attending adding input?
As I think about these questions one thing comes to mind.......WHO CARES? They are what they are now so lets run with it. If I was to dream up my own personal set of rules today......sometime in the future I'd see something I don't like and want to change it.
PKC has two very workable set of rules. They are more then ample to run trials. To not get behind them because you didn't like who was invited or who authored them is just silly and counterproductive.
I simply say thanks to all who put the work into putting them together. Like any format they should be used and revisited, then revised annualy.
This was supposed to be a thread about how PKC can do better, not a debate on who wrote what and when.
For anything to survive people have to support the good and accept the bad, while always striving to improve any revealed weaknesses. Redtick, this isn't a "personal attack" but it's childish to say there are things you don't like so you won't promote or participate in PKC. Sounds like "if I don't get everything my way, I'll take my toys and go home."
And besides, you're supporting or not supporting PKC really has no bearing on it's success, so please come up with some proactive and positive ideas, quit repeating the one or two things you don't like. I mean I run in UKC and guess what, there's lots of things I don't like about it, but golly gee, I can still support it.
Anyway, I'm interested in hearing 1.) more creative promotion ideas and 2.) any ideas how to get PKC listening and more supportive.
dk
As I think about these questions one thing comes to mind.......WHO CARES? They are what they are now so lets run with it. If I was to dream up my own personal set of rules today......sometime in the future I'd see something I don't like and want to change it.
PKC has two very workable set of rules. They are more then ample to run trials. To not get behind them because you didn't like who was invited or who authored them is just silly and counterproductive.
I simply say thanks to all who put the work into putting them together. Like any format they should be used and revisited, then revised annualy.
This was supposed to be a thread about how PKC can do better, not a debate on who wrote what and when.
For anything to survive people have to support the good and accept the bad, while always striving to improve any revealed weaknesses. Redtick, this isn't a "personal attack" but it's childish to say there are things you don't like so you won't promote or participate in PKC. Sounds like "if I don't get everything my way, I'll take my toys and go home."
And besides, you're supporting or not supporting PKC really has no bearing on it's success, so please come up with some proactive and positive ideas, quit repeating the one or two things you don't like. I mean I run in UKC and guess what, there's lots of things I don't like about it, but golly gee, I can still support it.
Anyway, I'm interested in hearing 1.) more creative promotion ideas and 2.) any ideas how to get PKC listening and more supportive.
dk
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dogrunnerone
- Posts: 130
- Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2005 7:10 pm
- Location: Indiana
If you are interested in making a difference, then I would say there are a few things that one could do.
1.) Hold a Hunt either format doesn't matter, just hold a hunt or two.
2.) Spread the word, other than this computer. Not all houndsman have a computer and use the internet.
3.) Call PKC. As from what I could tell Larry Meeks is a fair and honest man that has worked hard for what he has and is approachable. I don't think he is interested in hearing any whining or crying, but I feel sure he would listen to any concerns or suggestions that you have to make things better.
4.) Go to a hunt when one is put on. I went to Ohio this past weekend to a H&H trial with $100 added. The winner of this hunt was going to take $145 dollars home and only 2 hunters showed up. It has to have support and once people see that they are fun and there isn't a bunch of cheating and so on going on there, then maybe this thing might gain some life.
Just a few ideas! Any more?
1.) Hold a Hunt either format doesn't matter, just hold a hunt or two.
2.) Spread the word, other than this computer. Not all houndsman have a computer and use the internet.
3.) Call PKC. As from what I could tell Larry Meeks is a fair and honest man that has worked hard for what he has and is approachable. I don't think he is interested in hearing any whining or crying, but I feel sure he would listen to any concerns or suggestions that you have to make things better.
4.) Go to a hunt when one is put on. I went to Ohio this past weekend to a H&H trial with $100 added. The winner of this hunt was going to take $145 dollars home and only 2 hunters showed up. It has to have support and once people see that they are fun and there isn't a bunch of cheating and so on going on there, then maybe this thing might gain some life.
Just a few ideas! Any more?
Craig A. Tull
3398 N. 130 W.
Frankfort, In
(765) 659-3959
3398 N. 130 W.
Frankfort, In
(765) 659-3959
How is PKC differant from any of the other registries and formats that are out there? It seems to me (and I could be wrong) that the only differance is money prizes rather than trophies.
Maybe, if money is the only differance, then there is just not enough interest in running for money.
Most of the trialers I've been around are hobby trialers and don't want to be "professionals". Money is not a motivator for them.
The love of running beagles is the motivator.
I am very unknowledgable about PKC so I could be absolutly wrong about this format.
Maybe, if money is the only differance, then there is just not enough interest in running for money.
Most of the trialers I've been around are hobby trialers and don't want to be "professionals". Money is not a motivator for them.
The love of running beagles is the motivator.
I am very unknowledgable about PKC so I could be absolutly wrong about this format.
"Watch your dog and SHUT-UP"
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houndsound
- Posts: 452
- Joined: Wed Jun 30, 2004 7:48 am
- Location: Sheridan, WY
Good thoughts. I will be working on doing all of them.dogrunnerone wrote:If you are interested in making a difference, then I would say there are a few things that one could do.
1.) Hold a Hunt either format doesn't matter, just hold a hunt or two.
2.) Spread the word, other than this computer. Not all houndsman have a computer and use the internet.
3.) Call PKC. As from what I could tell Larry Meeks is a fair and honest man that has worked hard for what he has and is approachable. I don't think he is interested in hearing any whining or crying, but I feel sure he would listen to any concerns or suggestions that you have to make things better.
4.) Go to a hunt when one is put on. I went to Ohio this past weekend to a H&H trial with $100 added. The winner of this hunt was going to take $145 dollars home and only 2 hunters showed up. It has to have support and once people see that they are fun and there isn't a bunch of cheating and so on going on there, then maybe this thing might gain some life.
Just a few ideas! Any more?
dk
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houndsound
- Posts: 452
- Joined: Wed Jun 30, 2004 7:48 am
- Location: Sheridan, WY
Tim H wrote:How is PKC differant from any of the other registries and formats that are out there? It seems to me (and I could be wrong) that the only differance is money prizes rather than trophies.
Maybe, if money is the only differance, then there is just not enough interest in running for money.
Most of the trialers I've been around are hobby trialers and don't want to be "professionals". Money is not a motivator for them.
The love of running beagles is the motivator.
I am very unknowledgable about PKC so I could be absolutly wrong about this format.
That's an interesting question. It's possible that the PKC rules are to similar to other formats. Maybe they need a set of rules that blends the current two together making it different then other formats.
dk