A general forum for the discussion of hunting with beagles, guns, clothing and other equipment and just talking dawgs! (Tall tales on hunting allowed, but remember, first liar doesn't stand a chance)
crewchf wrote:Did the show folks develop that box look??? How did that happen and why all the confusion on what the standerd should be???
From the standard
Back, Loin and Ribs: Back short, muscular and strong. Loin broad and slightly arched, and the ribs well sprung, giving abundance of lung room.
Defects: very long or swayed or roached back. Flat, narrow loin, flat ribs.
From the quote above the back should be short.........the backIS NOT THE WHOLE TOP LINE The back is only about four to five inches long! Todays show hounds are very short coupled and many lack the arch that acts as a shock absorber in the field. Many show breeders don't realize this. Some that do just have to modify their breeding programs so they can look like the others and stand a chance in the ring! I hear "flat top line" all the time but it ISN"T SUPPOSED TO BE FLAT! Is a horses topline flat? No! then why should a hound that is built for speed, drive and galloping all day be flat across the topline?
Another example of the standard that the show folks seem to ignore is the flews.
Jaws: Level. Lips free from flews; nostrils large and open.
Umm What do you call them floppy things that hang down off the show beagles muzzle?? Are they flews?? The standard says FREE FROM FLEWS but the show fanciers prefer the longer lipped look. Just another example is all.
Many show hounds are over done in the head and narrow in the hips and have a much higher difficulty rate when whelping. Many have to have c-sections as a rule not to mention they are so short coupled that they lack sufficient room for the pups! (look below at how much smaller the heads were on the earlier American Beagles. They had smaller heads and more topline)
Any show breeder can tell you........(well they might not but it's the truth). If you have a flashy cute beagle and the money to play with you can finish it whether it is a well built beagle or not! They can stack classes with lesser dogs and off to the shows they go!! It is a FACT! Sooner or later that dog will get it's CH status. Does this mean the dogs meet the standard?? Nooo, just means they know how to play the game! Now, hang on before you blow your drink out of your nose.......I am ot saying all show breeders do this but even you show breeders know it is done. BTW, the show ring AND the field trials are NOTHING MORE than a game we play with these hounds. The field is the true test of a hound! The vast majority of show hounds have never been tested in the field. Some folks do run their show beagles but not many so the question is "How do the show breeders know that they are producing a quality hound if it is not being tested for what it was bred to do?"
Something else to think about. Below are a couple of pictures of early American Champion Beagles. Look how far both field and show hounds have come compared to what they looked like then. The below quotes were taken from the National beagle Club History page.
1899 Frank Forrest
With the continuance of derrogatory remarks made of the show-Beagle of the time in the field trial press, in 1896, James Kernochan began to import proven hunting hounds from English packs, thus introducing the hound head and body, legs and feet of a good Beagle to the more terrier/Dachshund-like field beagles, and also setting the Beagle type of present time.
The Standard was revised in 1900 to put more emphasis on running gear and thus the function of the Beagle breed.
Pretty wild huh??? The fact is we can all learn alot from each other (Both show breeders and field breeders alike). This arrogance I see from many (not all so don't take it personal if you are a show breeder reading this) show breeders just confuses me. Heck, we all have the same breed!
hey kevin , u know i like stormy but i cant pick her over kole and chaos in that pic lolol IMO
hows them pups doing ?
I took a really good pic of Stormy and not good enough on the others! lol Not that Stormy is horrible in conformation but Chaos was nothing short of beautiful. If Zeus fills out like Chaos did he will hold his own on the bench and field.
Haven't had a day we couldn't run rabbits with the pups! Conditions from dry with baby rabbits to 1" of solid ice and everything inbetween.
Our Dirty Pond Beagles "Heaven goes by favour. If it went by merit,
you would stay out and your dog would go in."
-M. Twain
Some of the things I was told when I was showing my duds... dog should measure same length from point of shoulder to base of tail and point of shoulder to ground. Standard CKC says very long, swayed or roached back. I got caught because the first dog had a blaze up her rear leg giving the optical illusion that she was longer than tall. I measured her repeatedly but a judge always eye balled her. I was also told that if you field trial a show dog, they bulk up in muscles and the show world doesn't want to see that. My second dog then was field trialing (after a fashion, she had the hours in the bush at least) and she was a solid, lean racing machine. She was too weird so had to stop. She did get 2 points before she got weird. So maybe the square thing is coming from the notion I have said above. I did notice the field dogs were way longer than what I saw in the show ringas well as having weird looking legs, front and back. My show dog could out run and out turn the field dogs when she took a notion too so she seems more balanced.
Flews are defined as pendulous lateral part of dog's upper lip. Guess the definition goes to what is considered pendulous???
If a dog has the right type of muscle mass it will not bulk up but the muscle will be firm and defined. Beau is a good example of this. He has had more field time than most beagles but there is no bulging. My Best in show (UKC) female is not as strong in this area and has much bulkier muscle mass with far less field time. Many beagles in today's show ring have the wrong type of muscle and if they get the correct excercise they will become bulky and loaded. The Ukc format REQUIRES that a dog be in field ready condition. It also requires that a dog be judged on gait. As for toplines. This is an area that needs improvement. Watching a dog in motion from the side shows many things. Too many judges don't even look at side movement and unfortunately are prone to error in their judging. If a dog has a properly muscled loin it will be slightly arched. Too many field dogs have a roached topline. If you run your thumb down a dog's spine there should be no dip in any vertebrae but rather a gentle continuity. Dan M
Just from my experience in the field,a dog built like the dog that won the best black and tan contest can last the longest in the field.I think his name is boldstrokes riley.You can just look at him and tell that sucker is built to run.I like a dog like that.They seem to have an hour glass shape to them.They are thick in there chest and long bodied,then as you move to the middle of the dog you can touch your thumbs and your pointing finger togather when you wrap them around the dogs middle.Then you move back to the hind end and there little legs have muscles on them that look like there as big as your fist.To me when a dog is in proper shape and looking like thatthey seem to perform there best and they dont have no stopping in them.The longer the body the better,it seems long bodied dogs are faster the majority of the time.I try to breed this shape,look,whatever into all my pups.I wont breed to a short bodied female.Just look at the bulge on primetimes back leg in the picture,you can just tell that dog can go all day.
good dogs run on good days,great dogs run when u take them out
The standard says FREE FROM FLEWS but the show fanciers prefer the longer lipped look. Just another example is all.
